Heir to dukes throne

[Robbos]

Its impossible to tell how a player would do in different generations. If you grow up in a different era you are required to develop different skills, but he was able to be good enough to be elite for 6 years. Yes the game has changed but other countries have adapted and produce similar numbers of players at the elite level. We havent because we have less pathways than we used to.

We also had 20 years of continuous improvement in the nsl era due to underage teams going down to u6 as well as, colts, a nyl and reserves in the state league. The a league got rid of that but brought back academies and we see partial improvement.

Kewell and viduka werent the only outliers of that generation, there were multiple players who got 6 or more years of regular football in the big 5 which is an achievement no outfield player has

Let me change tack a bit to explain what I mean because Mono likes to change to a A-League v NSL/NPL agenda.
I understand in regard to the NSL clubs having academies all the way down to u6 was good & the Golden generation were the best, they were all my heroes, I was there when Alosi scored that penalty in 2005 & I was there in Germany WC 2006, the best time of my life.
However, after losing to Brazil, I was most impressed, we played & competed with Brazil in a world cup (WOW), I spoke to some Brazilain fans afterwards, who gave us no credit & said we played English rugby football, all grunt no skill. I was not happy, but months later I watched replay & he had a point, we competed & competed very well, but skill wise we were not in the same ballpark.

Now my point & I get away from Australia, we had a football revolution, the Barca revolution, I know you know the story. All the talented footballing countries had to pick up their physical side & mental strength (my country of heritage Portugal, a prime example), Africans like Kante & Spainards like Rodri, could run all day, but also had the touch & the vision, even your GKs had to be good with their feet Ederson & Allison.
All the more countries who relied on the more Physical strength & mental strength had to create skillful players like Bellingham & Foden for England. Now England always had skillful players like Hoddle, Gazza & Scholes, but they weren't appreciated as the Gerrards, Robsons.
I looked at the top 4 teams in the England & there were only 5 British (all English) players in total in the starting lineup, England are still playing catch up, Scotland totally left behind & even Germany no longer as dominant. Suddenly Spain, France, Argentina & Portugal & even Croatia are the top teams as they have always had touch players & players with vision.

Now coming back to Australia, only Kewell & Dukes had these kill & hence this the main reason we struggle to get players playing in the top level these days, nothing to do with how the clubs in the 80s & 90s had academies from u6, we do not & have never produced real quality footballers, outside of Viduka & Kewell, we have always produced solid professionals.

 

[patjennings]

They had different strengths. Culina and grella had a good first touch and good handling speed. Emerton and chipperfield were good at dribbling at speed. Bresciano and niell had great first touch and vision

I liked Culina as a footballer - what I didn't like was the commentators opinion that he was a prolific goalscorer. He scored at a rate of about 1 goal ever 10 games in the Dutch league. He score once for the Socceroos - and it was a very good strike. But the way Harper drooled over him you would think he was as prolific as Timmy.

 

[Kitwally]

You dont think qualifying for world cups is important

Well Greece only qualified in 1994, 2010, and 2014, so why would he think WC qualification is important? Compared to 1974, 2006, 2010, 2014, 2018, 2022, 2026. I’ll take qualifying for 6 World Cups in a row thank you very much.

 

[grazorblade]

Let me change tack a bit to explain what I mean because Mono likes to change to a A-League v NSL/NPL agenda.
I understand in regard to the NSL clubs having academies all the way down to u6 was good & the Golden generation were the best, they were all my heroes, I was there when Alosi scored that penalty in 2005 & I was there in Germany WC 2006, the best time of my life.
However, after losing to Brazil, I was most impressed, we played & competed with Brazil in a world cup (WOW), I spoke to some Brazilain fans afterwards, who gave us no credit & said we played English rugby football, all grunt no skill. I was not happy, but months later I watched replay & he had a point, we competed & competed very well, but skill wise we were not in the same ballpark.

Now my point & I get away from Australia, we had a football revolution, the Barca revolution, I know you know the story. All the talented footballing countries had to pick up their physical side & mental strength (my country of heritage Portugal, a prime example), Africans like Kante & Spainards like Rodri, could run all day, but also had the touch & the vision, even your GKs had to be good with their feet Ederson & Allison.
All the more countries who relied on the more Physical strength & mental strength had to create skillful players like Bellingham & Foden for England. Now England always had skillful players like Hoddle, Gazza & Scholes, but they weren't appreciated as the Gerrards, Robsons.
I looked at the top 4 teams in the England & there were only 5 British (all English) players in total in the starting lineup, England are still playing catch up, Scotland totally left behind & even Germany no longer as dominant. Suddenly Spain, France, Argentina & Portugal & even Croatia are the top teams as they have always had touch players & players with vision.

Now coming back to Australia, only Kewell & Dukes had these kill & hence this the main reason we struggle to get players playing in the top level these days, nothing to do with how the clubs in the 80s & 90s had academies from u6, we do not & have never produced real quality footballers, outside of Viduka & Kewell, we have always produced solid professionals.

Yeah so I guess the question is how much of our decline in producing players in the big 5 is due to the change in style

The generation born 81-86 indeed is quite a physical generation, but honestly when i look at old socceroos matches we didnt look particularly physical compared to our opponents. Certainly not scotland level. I think the physicality of the australian style has been exaggerated, with it only really being true of the 81-86 generation

But even scotland didnt decline nearly as much as we did in their production line. Look at where their players are playing?

In trying to understand our decline, I tried to see the effects of throwing out a nyl, academies and p&r in 93 (however ad hoc it was). It was difficult to measure because its hard to find any countries that dont have p and r or academies to do an analysis (im using academies loosely to mean just having a bunch of underage teams, e.g. u6 to u18). The one effect i can confidentally measure is introducing a u20 comp which on average improves the national team's elo by 80 points after 12 years. If academies have a similar effect, then most of the decline over the last couple of decades can be explained just by those two factors -removing academies and u20s. It hasnt been out of our control at all!

 

[grazorblade]

I liked Culina as a footballer - what I didn't like was the commentators opinion that he was a prolific goalscorer. He scored at a rate of about 1 goal ever 10 games in the Dutch league. He score once for the Socceroos - and it was a very good strike. But the way Harper drooled over him you would think he was as prolific as Timmy.

Yeah guus played him high on the pitch at first but he didnt have the striking ability to be effective. Preferred him as a twin pivot

 

[Robbos]

Yeah so I guess the question is how much of our decline in producing players in the big 5 is due to the change in style

The generation born 81-86 indeed is quite a physical generation, but honestly when i look at old socceroos matches we didnt look particularly physical compared to our opponents. Certainly not scotland level. I think the physicality of the australian style has been exaggerated, with it only really being true of the 81-86 generation

But even scotland didnt decline nearly as much as we did in their production line. Look at where their players are playing?

In trying to understand our decline, I tried to see the effects of throwing out a nyl, academies and p&r in 93 (however ad hoc it was). It was difficult to measure because its hard to find any countries that dont have p and r or academies to do an analysis (im using academies loosely to mean just having a bunch of underage teams, e.g. u6 to u18). The one effect i can confidentally measure is introducing a u20 comp which on average improves the national team's elo by 80 points after 12 years. If academies have a similar effect, then most of the decline over the last couple of decades can be explained just by those two factors -removing academies and u20s. It hasnt been out of our control at all!

By Physical, I also mean athleticism both speed & endurance, not just aggression.

I also don't see it as a decline but that we didn't move at the pace as other countries, so many countries now investing in football & we are not & this includes academies & infrastructure. Yes no P/R hurts too, but not sure we had P/R in NSL either.

 

[LFC]

we didn't have any pace afterall once the decline was evident.
There was no direction - we went into a void.
True investment is a major issue - P/R really wasn't consistant back those days, it was a mosh pit it was fabricated depending who and the agendas.
Thats the vision they/FA need to have in their sights ahead to straighten the ship and new frontiers this place has never had unlike the rest of the football world.

 

[grazorblade]

By Physical, I also mean athleticism both speed & endurance, not just aggression.

I also don't see it as a decline but that we didn't move at the pace as other countries, so many countries now investing in football & we are not & this includes academies & infrastructure. Yes no P/R hurts too, but not sure we had P/R in NSL either.

I mean if I look at the team we have just before the gg, the 69-74 generation
69-74

-----------------------Schwarzer------------------------
Muscat-----popavic--Vidmar-------Lazaridis-
-----------------Okon--Skoko-----------------------------
-------------------------Zelic-----------------------------------
--Foster-----------Trimboli---------Tiatto/Zdrillic-

It's not clear to me that athleticism is their main asset, I would say this is a more technically focused team for the time to be honest

It definitely seems true that the 81-86 generation is overly physical

The P&R in the first 16 years of the nsl was corrupt and ad hoc, but it still would mean that lower division teams have an incentive to get their buts into gear and improve because they feel they have a realistic chance to make the top division. I hear from a variety of sources that one of the biggest issues we face today is the gap between the elite youth and the next level down, which means kids plateau at around 15

 

[grazorblade]

we didn't have any pace afterall once the decline was evident.
There was no direction - we went into a void.
True investment is a major issue - P/R really wasn't consistant back those days, it was a mosh pit it was fabricated depending who and the agendas.
Thats the vision they/FA need to have in their sights ahead to straighten the ship and new frontiers this place has never had unlike the rest of the football world.

I still think it was better than nothing

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

I mean if I look at the team we have just before the gg, the 69-74 generation
69-74

-----------------------Schwarzer------------------------
Muscat-----popavic--Vidmar-------Lazaridis-
-----------------Okon--Skoko-----------------------------
-------------------------Zelic-----------------------------------
--Foster-----------Trimboli---------Tiatto/Zdrillic-

It's not clear to me that athleticism is their main asset, I would say this is a more technically focused team for the time to be honest

It definitely seems true that the 81-86 generation is overly physical

The P&R in the first 16 years of the nsl was corrupt and ad hoc, but it still would mean that lower division teams have an incentive to get their buts into gear and improve because they feel they have a realistic chance to make the top division. I hear from a variety of sources that one of the biggest issues we face today is the gap between the elite youth and the next level down, which means kids plateau at around 15

I doubt any of them, barring Muskie and Laza, could run for longer than 25 mins either

 

[Robbos]

I mean if I look at the team we have just before the gg, the 69-74 generation
69-74

-----------------------Schwarzer------------------------
Muscat-----popavic--Vidmar-------Lazaridis-
-----------------Okon--Skoko-----------------------------
-------------------------Zelic-----------------------------------
--Foster-----------Trimboli---------Tiatto/Zdrillic-

It's not clear to me that athleticism is their main asset, I would say this is a more technically focused team for the time to be honest

It definitely seems true that the 81-86 generation is overly physical

The P&R in the first 16 years of the nsl was corrupt and ad hoc, but it still would mean that lower division teams have an incentive to get their buts into gear and improve because they feel they have a realistic chance to make the top division. I hear from a variety of sources that one of the biggest issues we face today is the gap between the elite youth and the next level down, which means kids plateau at around 15

I see a very strong midfield, some of Australia's best, how many times did that trio play together for Socceroos?

 

[grazorblade]

I see a very strong midfield, some of Australia's best, how many times did that trio play together for Socceroos?

Not sure, saw them a few times but dont have a full list of games

They didnt play 433 and when they played together id see zelic play sweeper to fit all three

 

[Robbos]

Not sure, saw them a few times but dont have a full list of games

They didnt play 433 and when they played together id see zelic play sweeper to fit all three

I would say you had Slater doing a lot of running for these guys.
That 97 team that lost tragically to Iran to be one of the most underrated in our history, there was some real quality there & a good coach.

 

[grazorblade]

I would say you had Slater doing a lot of running for these guys.
That 97 team that lost tragically to Iran to be one of the most underrated in our history, there was some real quality there & a good coach.

Yeah slater was part of the previous generation along with frank farina and aerelio vidmar

Im curious for the history buffs who the best team born 63-68 were

I remember a bunch of names, a vidmar, farina, slater, crino, van blerk, arnold

Wouldnt know who the best xi would be tho

 

[Robbos]

Yeah slater was part of the previous generation along with frank farina and aerelio vidmar

Im curious for the history buffs who the best team born 63-68 were

I remember a bunch of names, a vidmar, farina, slater, crino, van blerk, arnold

Wouldnt know who the best xi would be tho

That wasn't a bad side, that lost to Argentina in the WC qualifiers, some very good players, but didn't have real quality like Kewell, Dukes & Bozza of the 97 lost to Iran, we also had Slater & A Vidmar running around then too.

 

[grazorblade]

That wasn't a bad side, that lost to Argentina in the WC qualifiers, some very good players, but didn't have real quality like Kewell, Dukes & Bozza of the 97 lost to Iran, we also had Slater & A Vidmar running around then too.

who would be your all time xi from players born 63-68?

 

[Robbos]

who would be your all time xi from players born 63-68?

It's been great having this discussion with & allowing for our differences.

My knowledge is not great enough to pick an all-time xi from this era. You named some of the best players from that era already.
Slater & Vidmar were 2 of the best & played in Europe & they took on the might of Maradona (though well past it by then) in 93.,

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Well Greece only qualified in 1994, 2010, and 2014, so why would he think WC qualification is important? Compared to 1974, 2006, 2010, 2014, 2018, 2022, 2026. I’ll take qualifying for 6 World Cups in a row thank you very much.

Greece have a fairly good shout at qualifying for next year... strong young squad and decent recent results... Qualifying for a world cup throuhg UEFA (and also having the same best result - round of 16) as a country like Australia with 2.5 times the population is no mean feat. How many times has Malaysia qualified for the World Cup out of interest? A country with 4 times the population of Greece and football mad?

 

[LFC]

who would be your all time xi from players born 63-68?

Graz,
from 63-68 born what is the avg age bench mark of the player you use ? 20yrs for eg ? in a Roo shirt say '85 ?
Were talking Scheinflog/Arok coaching era's ?

 

[ashtongate]

who would be your all time xi from players born 63-68?

Not sure of their dates of birth, but these guys were around 80-93:
Krncevic
Mitchell
Ollerenshaw
Davidson
Yankos
Kosmina
Patikas
Jennings
plus the ones already mentioned