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Expansion Thread 🪜

Sutherlandbear said:
A lot of clubs in Europe are putting their youth teams into lower leagues to give them better exposure to playing against adults and old pro's.
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they tend to have both which is what I'm advocating for and what we had for the most part before
e.g. A-Junioren-Bundesliga, Eredivisie U19 (also have u17 national leagues like we had coach) but also have reserves in lower divisions
 
grazorblade said:
they tend to have both which is what I'm advocating for and what we had for the most part before
e.g. A-Junioren-Bundesliga, Eredivisie U19 (also have u17 national leagues like we had coach) but also have reserves in lower divisions
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Alternatively we could bring back a national youth league in addition to having Football Australia put a developmental side in the A-League, which gives youth players game time and essentially acts as a farm system for developing Socceroos prospects in the absence of a dedicated national academy.
 
grazorblade said:
they tend to have both which is what I'm advocating for and what we had for the most part before
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Agree. I go back to this same conversation we had a while ago:

HappyGuus said:
That's a great point about the YL possibly paying for itself these days.

Season timing will need some work. They need to stay in the state leagues, it's just working too well playing 20+ matches against men. So the YL would be in addition to that.

The players need a mandatory rest period of 6 or more weeks. So the YL season would either be in the lead up to a state football season or after it. A post season YL might fit in nicely with the Championship timing, if they keep that. Then they can have the same breaks as the NPL teams.

I don't know how that rest period works when the A-League team and their state team play 52 weeks of the year altogether, when do the kids get their break if they are called up to the senior team?
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HappyGuus said:
Honestly I'd just match the Championship timing as there isn't much room for anything longer, and they'll all get the same off-season. 11 Australian clubs, 10 matches each in a single round robin (11 weeks).

Assuming the A-League clubs make the NPL finals, they could be playing them into September. If they kick off the youth league immediately after that, it should finish up around late November. Add 6 weeks break minimum, pre-season training, pre-season matches, then it's a tight squeeze before the NPL starts early February. But certainly doable.
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I still think a post NPL season youth league is a goer, even if it's just 9 rounds to fit in with calendars and rest periods. It's almost like an A-League youth finals tournament.
 
BA81 said:
Perfect scenario for a Canberra-based side.
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I think it'd be better if the proposed developmental side was based at Home of the Matildas because it means that Socceroos prospects would be better prepared for international competitions, and the assumption would be that A-League expansion to Canberra still goes ahead with a separate club under different ownership that isn't affiliated with FA.
 
rebelliousfeminist974 said:
I think it'd be better if the proposed developmental side was based at Home of the Matildas because it means that Socceroos prospects would be better prepared for international competitions, and the assumption would be that A-League expansion to Canberra still goes ahead with a separate club under different ownership that isn't affiliated with FA.
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There is no way that an FA development side should be in the A League. It would devalue the league even further, and create all sorts of issues. Is it done anywhere else in the world?
 
Keeper66 said:
There is no way that an FA development side should be in the A League. It would devalue the league even further, and create all sorts of issues. Is it done anywhere else in the world?
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Singapore has the Young Lions development side in their top flight league and it's been fairly successful. Ideally the aim would be to bridge the gap between NPL and A-League with long-term ambitions for youth players to eventually get a senior contract at an A-League side and possibly a Socceroos callup in the future.
 
Think its time to make the big call and just go pro and rel, its becoming more evident that building an a-league club from a bidding process and trying to artificially grow it is not viable in Australia. Maybe the US where the sheer size of the local population can keep it going.

If the Newcastle and CCM cant get it together financially then off to the 2nd division you go, get to a smaller stadium do what it takes. The teams like Heidelberg and other teams who have been successful in the cup have proven the level not that far off.

Doing this lifts the intensity of the entire pyramid, every game counts now.

But a clear financial framework needs to be provided to the teams who come up.
 
jas88 said:
Think its time to make the big call and just go pro and rel, its becoming more evident that building an a-league club from a bidding process and trying to artificially grow it is not viable in Australia. Maybe the US where the sheer size of the local population can keep it going.

If the Newcastle and CCM cant get it together financially then off to the 2nd division you go, get to a smaller stadium do what it takes. The teams like Heidelberg and other teams who have been successful in the cup have proven the level not that far off.

Doing this lifts the intensity of the entire pyramid, every game counts now.

But a clear financial framework needs to be provided to the teams who come up.
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It is not just Newcastle and CCM - every club (with the exception I believe of the Mariners) have been supported financially or funded entirely for a period of time by the FFA/FA/APL/other owners. Every club is vulnerable because they are not 'traditional clubs'. They don't control their grounds, they mostly just get a fraction (or nothing at all) for food and drinks sales on the day. Every club is there at the whim of the owners. If one owner pulls out and another owner can't be found then they are gone unless they are supported by the APL these days.

On the standard of the various NPLs Vic NPL has shown they can compete at the moment. I'm not convinced by the NSW NPL. The CCM Academy side is in a playoff for pro/rel. After the first half of the season they were well behind in last place and looked likely to finish last by a long way. In the second half of the they rallied and are now in the playoff games. The point being that they are age limited (to 22 I believe) but this team is actually an U20 side. In fact next season half of the team will still be eligible for the U18s.

During the second half of the season they collected 7 points from 15 from the 5 NSW Foundation 8 Australian Championship sides. i.e. to put it another way 5 of the strongest NSW NPL clubs could only manage 7 points from 15 against an U20 A League academy side.
 
jas88 said:
Think its time to make the big call and just go pro and rel, its becoming more evident that building an a-league club from a bidding process and trying to artificially grow it is not viable in Australia. Maybe the US where the sheer size of the local population can keep it going.

If the Newcastle and CCM cant get it together financially then off to the 2nd division you go, get to a smaller stadium do what it takes. The teams like Heidelberg and other teams who have been successful in the cup have proven the level not that far off.

Doing this lifts the intensity of the entire pyramid, every game counts now.

But a clear financial framework needs to be provided to the teams who come up.
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Going pro/rel is walled off by the franchise system. The club owners are the APL, and, having spent many millions of dollars, they are not going to volunteer to be replaced by a second division club.

I suggest that the only way that this would happen is if the second division clubs paid a fee too to enter the comp, and became stakeholders in the APL. Otherwise, it will never happen while the A League exists in its present form.

Say the fee was fixed an $5 million. Is there a single APL club that could stump this up and then lose millions every year to participate. I can't think of one, not even South Melbourne.

I don't see a way around this other than a complete rethink, rebuild, and rebrand of the national competition.
 
Frankly Speaking said:
Going pro/rel is walled off by the franchise system. The club owners are the APL, and, having spent many millions of dollars, they are not going to volunteer to be replaced by a second division club.

I suggest that the only way that this would happen is if the second division clubs paid a fee too to enter the comp, and became stakeholders in the APL. Otherwise, it will never happen while the A League exists in its present form.

Say the fee was fixed an $5 million. Is there a single APL club that could stump this up and then lose millions every year to participate. I can't think of one, not even South Melbourne.

I don't see a way around this other than a complete rethink, rebuild, and rebrand of the national competition.
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This is exactly what I believe too.

If you're trying to attract people to invest large sums of money in launching an A League club or franchise in Australia then they're going to demand that once they're in they're in for good.

They don’t want to invest what could amount to tens of millions of dollars in terms of the initial franchise licence fee and start up costs in something that could get relegated into a 'second division'....

It wouldn't be any different in any of the other professional football competitions in Australia. It’s the North American model of the sporting franchise system.


This model of a 'franchise' was baked into American sports from the beginning. And what that means really is that the team is an investment meant to benefit the owner. It’s a slightly different landscape in Australia because most of the various clubs in NRL, AFL etc are clubs first and business's second but the no jeapardy culture aspect is still paramount to their 'business model'.

Interesting thing is mind I recently read an article about American interest in English football and the writer opined that one of the main reasons for this interest is the jeopardy of promotion and relegation thatvwas attracting the American fan....

Also it hasn't stopped a lot of American investors entering the market for English clubs up and down the league.

But it's very unlikely to enter the US sporting model.
 
HappyGuus said:
That's a good point. Why is investment in clubs within pro/rel leagues around the world different from if we had pro/rel in Australia?
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Well at the moment owners have to wait for an expansion process and bid for a team, unsuccessful bidders take their money elsewhere

In a pyramid anyone who wants to invest in a team can, though pwrhaps you lose thats that want to start a completely new club at the top, not sure if there are many in that category
 
grazorblade said:
Well at the moment owners have to wait for an expansion process and bid for a team, unsuccessful bidders take their money elsewhere

In a pyramid anyone who wants to invest in a team can, though pwrhaps you lose thats that want to start a completely new club at the top, not sure if there are many in that category
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In pro/rel leagues I don't think there's much incentive to start a completely new club that's in the top flight right off the bat like there is in the closed model, as opposed to investing in an existing team or starting from the bottom and working your way up.
 
Move the "The Championship" group stage to start of August and end in the 2nd last weekend of September so that it can double up as "A-league Qualification" group stage with the top team in each group directly joining the A-league season 2 weeks later
 
GDEATHE said:
Move the "The Championship" group stage to start of August and end in the 2nd last weekend of September so that it can double up as "A-league Qualification" group stage with the top team in each group directly joining the A-league season 2 weeks later
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Seriously, think before you post. How the hell do you organise a season with a team coming in two weeks prior ? A logistical nightmare is the nicest thing I could say.
 
Sutherlandbear said:
Seriously, think before you post. How the hell do you organise a season with a team coming in two weeks prior ? A logistical nightmare is the nicest thing I could say.
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It's not that far fetched. Obviously it would work better if clubs owned their own grounds - but in Brazil Serie D starts three weeks after the end of the state leagues (which serve as qualifiers). Originally it's how clubs qualified for Serie A but expansion of the national professionalised leagues means now it's down to Serie D.
I don't think it's a bad model at all for an Australian second division (maybe into the A-L is slightly fanciful), and it means A-League sides would play more games earlier in the year - which is obviously necessary.
 
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