Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

[Monoethnic Social Club]

You do realise Rugari is just a journalist right?

Thats being VERY fast and loose with the truth. Taking an APL press release and having chat GPT make it sound like an AFL loving illiterate wrote it ISN'T journalism.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

New fan view engaging with some of the objections and giving some of the economics case

Article '"Where would the money come from?" Answering the main objection to promotion relegation'

Football 360 recently made a mini documentary about the possibility of promotion relegation in Australia. In it Vince Rugari pours cold water on the idea asking, "where would the money come from?" https://football360.com.au/breaking-barriers-episode-one/ The question reminds me of discussing...

• grazorblade
• Feb 12, 2026
• 12 min read
• 5.00 star(s) 1 ratings
• Reaction score: 14
• Comments: 4
• Category: Socceroos

Brilliant article mate, but you are barking up the wrong tree. Those that WAN'T pro/rel dont have the power to implement it and those that DO would rather cut off their own nose to spite their face.

 

[Kitwally]

Nooooo, bc as we are all aware, his 'noble morality & the remowned journalistic integrity' blocks him from multiple streams!

“Streams”? You mean because he doesn’t write about the NPL Victoria? He’s written about the Australia Cup, the Championship, and even Yoogali. As people have said multiple times, he has work obligations, he can’t just write about anything. If he was a “celebrity journo” like Peter Fitzsimons, whose writing I can’t stand, then maybe he could write whatever he wanted. But I don’t think he is that interested in the NPL Victoria and neither am I as I’m not from Melbourne. Sorry! Feel free to abuse me if it helps.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

“Streams”? You mean because he doesn’t write about the NPL Victoria? He’s written about the Australia Cup, the Championship, and even Yoogali. As people have said multiple times, he has work obligations, he can’t just write about anything. If he was a “celebrity journo” like Peter Fitzsimons, whose writing I can’t stand, then maybe he could write whatever he wanted. But I don’t think he is that interested in the NPL Victoria and neither am I as I’m not from Melbourne. Sorry! Feel free to abuse me if it helps.

Birds of a feather DO flock together ... and I certainly mean Flock.

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

“Streams”? You mean because he doesn’t write about the NPL Victoria?

Yeah thats my issue, that he doesnt cover NPL and not what he writes and why champ!

Id be more than happy if he didnt have anything to do outside the AL whatsoever, problem is he does though, and its always got an underlying reason/tone/bias... opinions and arseholes suits here i guess! This specific one even has an enlighteneing geopolitical lesson for the mainstream the other day, like yourself, truth no need feature as long as you can read it.....why would it though ontegrity and truth in jounalism dont need to gp hand in hand these days anywaynas we can see.

. Sorry! Feel free to abuse me if it helps.

YOu after a footing for victimhood also like your mate?

 

[Kitwally]

There’s a lot to unpack there, I only understood about half of it. Have a great afternoon.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

There’s a lot to unpack there, I only understood about half of it. Have a great afternoon.

Here you go, Ill dummy it down for ya:

Rugari doesn't care about Italian or Greek Australians let alone their clubs unless he can make a dollar from them with his articles or unauthorised biographies. Whenever an article comes out or a movement (for lack of a better term) with ANY sort of positivity toward eventual promotion and relegation he trots out the same old APL suggested pro/rel garbage model as the ONLY one that will work.

Now this could be pigheadedness, but many feel that he ALWAYS does this because his masters told him that is what he HAS to say or else:
NO access to any of their players,
which means - NO reason for junkets to international tournamnets from his day job
and NO really poorly furnished inner city studio apartment... its pretty simple.


*** Allegedly for all above,

 

[grazorblade]

Brilliant article mate, but you are barking up the wrong tree. Those that WAN'T pro/rel dont have the power to implement it and those that DO would rather cut off their own nose to spite their face.

True, tho if a critical mass of fans want it and believe it is possible then who knows what could happeb with or without the suits

 

[Stu]

True, tho if a critical mass of fans want it and believe it is possible then who knows what could happeb with or without the suits

Well said. If enough people are writing about it, and enough people voice support for it, that momentum can build to something meaningful. In the past, these type of articles wouldn't stir any significant momentum. But with the Championship committed to for a few more years (at least), and strong NPL crowds and viewers, this type of discussion can build inertia.

It's about building a compelling case, where the suits see benefit in making it happen. I think Football Australia are already receptive to the idea. I don't think they'd support the national second tier, and commit to another 4/5 years of the Championship, if it wasn't to test the waters as to the future feasibility of promotion and relegation. Building something that is compelling for the suits at the APL will be the final hurdle.

That will probably happen slowly:

• More years of strong crowds and viewers in NPL and the Championship
• Moving to a true league style NST (based on Peter Tsekenis' comments in the NPL preview pod, this is when, not if)
• Several years of stability operating at a national level, and the ongoing desire from the NST clubs to continue investing the needed money
• The rise in standard for NST clubs results in more consistent performances against A-League sides in the Australia Cup, generating more attention to the NST and getting the attention of the APL
• More and more NST crowds that eclipse the smaller A-League clubs
• NST clubs with higher average crowds than smaller A-League clubs
• TV viewer numbers that are compelling to the APL

Eventually you get to a point where the APL suits see the benefit to themselves in opening up the closed system, because they will want to tap into the momentum the NST clubs have.

Build something tribal, where local communities are really engaged, grounds look full, and the atmosphere is great, and it will create something the APL will envy, and they will want tap into it to benefit themselves.

A lot of the above is all conjecture, but the Championship offers a platform for the clubs and fans to voice their ambition. Between 2004 and 2025 there was no platform. There is now, and that's worth being excited about.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Well said. If enough people are writing about it, and enough people voice support for it, that momentum can build to something meaningful. In the past, these type of articles wouldn't stir any significant momentum. But with the Championship committed to for a few more years (at least), and strong NPL crowds and viewers, this type of discussion can build inertia.

It's about building a compelling case, where the suits see benefit in making it happen. I think Football Australia are already receptive to the idea. I don't think they'd support the national second tier, and commit to another 4/5 years of the Championship, if it wasn't to test the waters as to the future feasibility of promotion and relegation. Building something that is compelling for the suits at the APL will be the final hurdle.

That will probably happen slowly:

• More years of strong crowds and viewers in NPL and the Championship
• Moving to a true league style NST (based on Peter Tsekenis' comments in the NPL preview pod, this is when, not if)
• Several years of stability operating at a national level, and the ongoing desire from the NST clubs to continue investing the needed money
• The rise in standard for NST clubs results in more consistent performances against A-League sides in the Australia Cup, generating more attention to the NST and getting the attention of the APL
• More and more NST crowds that eclipse the smaller A-League clubs
• NST clubs with higher average crowds than smaller A-League clubs
• TV viewer numbers that are compelling to the APL

Eventually you get to a point where the APL suits see the benefit to themselves in opening up the closed system, because they will want to tap into the momentum the NST clubs have.

Build something tribal, where local communities are really engaged, grounds look full, and the atmosphere is great, and it will create something the APL will envy, and they will want tap into it to benefit themselves.

A lot of the above is all conjecture, but the Championship offers a platform for the clubs and fans to voice their ambition. Between 2004 and 2025 there was no platform. There is now, and that's worth being excited about.

I love your enthusiasm Stu but the one thing I find problematic is:

"Build something tribal, where local communities are really engaged, grounds look full, and the atmosphere is great, and it will create something the APL will envy, and they will want tap into it to benefit themselves."

How long do you think a club like Preston or South Melbourne will remain tribal as part of a sanitised Aleague (Some of us South fans are already starting to grumble about OFC pro league eating into our engagement with our club)

The APL has already destroyed whatever tribalism the early Aleague had, whats to say they wont do the same moving forward.
Professionalism, corporate greed and market share are all regretable facets of modern football but everywhere else in the world they have come about AFTER the tribalism and grassroots have established themselves for decades upon decades... Here we want to do things arse backwards....

 

[Stu]

I love your enthusiasm Stu but the one thing I find problematic is:

"Build something tribal, where local communities are really engaged, grounds look full, and the atmosphere is great, and it will create something the APL will envy, and they will want tap into it to benefit themselves."

How long do you think a club like Preston or South Melbourne will remain tribal as part of a sanitised Aleague (Some of us South fans are already starting to grumble about OFC pro league eating into our engagement with our club)

The APL has already destroyed whatever tribalism the early Aleague had, whats to say they wont do the same moving forward.
Professionalism, corporate greed and market share are all regretable facets of modern football but everywhere else in the world they have come about AFTER the tribalism and grassroots have established themselves for decades upon decades... Here we want to do things arse backwards....

You make great points. There was less than 5,000 people at the Wanderers game against Wellington. The same weekend there are NPL games getting 1,500 to 2,000 attending. There isn't a lack of interest in football - it's a lack of connection to a-League clubs. The FFA and now the APL's lack of support/backing of supporters eroded what loyalty and connection a lot had to their club.

In my optimistic future, it's necessary for the APL to realise their error and try to build from the ground up, rather than arse backwards like you say. That's the only way I see the A-League growing back to somewhere near where it got to 10 years ago. In that scenario, the model between the APL and NST clubs more closely aligns and the risk of sanitisation of the NST clubs is much lower.

The example that gives me hope that even a league made up of franchises can actally realise this, is the MLS. A while back they realised they needed to start embracing active fans and use that as a selling point, rather than demonise them in some misguided thinking that it would result in more families attending. I don't know enough about the MLS to know if that is true anymore, but I do remember once they stopped trying to make football culture like baseball or NFL people started to come back.

The alternative scenario (arse backwards approach) ends up with the APL declining further into irrelevancy.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

You make great points. There was less than 5,000 people at the Wanderers game against Wellington. The same weekend there are NPL games getting 1,500 to 2,000 attending. There isn't a lack of interest in football - it's a lack of connection to a-League clubs. The FFA and now the APL's lack of support/backing of supporters eroded what loyalty and connection a lot had to their club.

In my optimistic future, it's necessary for the APL to realise their error and try to build from the ground up, rather than arse backwards like you say. That's the only way I see the A-League growing back to somewhere near where it got to 10 years ago. In that scenario, the model between the APL and NST clubs more closely aligns and the risk of sanitisation of the NST clubs is much lower.

The example that gives me hope that even a league made up of franchises can actally realise this, is the MLS. A while back they realised they needed to start embracing active fans and use that as a selling point, rather than demonise them in some misguided thinking that it would result in more families attending. I don't know enough about the MLS to know if that is true anymore, but I do remember once they stopped trying to make football culture like baseball or NFL people started to come back.

The alternative scenario (arse backwards approach) ends up with the APL declining further into irrelevancy.

Thats an interesting thought re MLS I hadn't considered... Its not football I can relate to but they certainly HAVE created their own unique competition... The problem (at least that I see) of Aleague replicating that same environment here is that Australians are generally alot more cynical toward blatant consumerism and may not respond as well to Star Wars round or a remote control ISUZU truck wheeling out the soccer ball at kick off... AS you say in your first paragraph, it has NEVER been about lack of interest in football, we have more people interested in football in this country than there are people in the entire country of footballing powerhouses... FA just needs to find a way to bring them all in from out of the cold, let EVERY football fan know they are equally necessary for the growth of the sport in this country.

 

[Glenardo]

Thats an interesting thought re MLS I hadn't considered... Its not football I can relate to but they certainly HAVE created their own unique competition... The problem (at least that I see) of Aleague replicating that same environment here is that Australians are generally alot more cynical toward blatant consumerism and may not respond as well to Star Wars round or a remote control ISUZU truck wheeling out the soccer ball at kick off... AS you say in your first paragraph, it has NEVER been about lack of interest in football, we have more people interested in football in this country than there are people in the entire country of footballing powerhouses... FA just needs to find a way to bring them all in from out of the cold, let EVERY football fan know they are equally necessary for the growth of the sport in this country.

My 2c: Also the mls isn’t really attempting to displace/replace traditional clubs or an established pre existing culture/history within the sport. They do have historic ethnic clubs in the US too but they were never quite at the same stature as they were here, they were always basically just local clubs and the broad based franchise model has been in place there in one form or another since the 60s ever since their first attempt at a national league. They do however have quite a historic long running cup competition though (100+ years i believe, and many of the names on the trophy from 50+ yes are ago are ethnic ones)

And also re embracing active support, you won’t get any arguments from me but it is worth noting that in the US aside from the odd random incident they also don’t have any history of crowd trouble to factor in. Their supporter groups by and large aren’t demographically comparable or comparable in mentality to the likes of RBB or north terrace. And before anyone archs up I’m not saying these groups are trouble makers, they’re just clearly culturally distinct from say..the den at Brisbane roar or whatever sporting kansas city’s supporter group is called etc

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

My 2c: Also the mls isn’t really attempting to displace/replace traditional clubs or an established pre existing culture/history within the sport. They do have historic ethnic clubs in the US too but they were never quite at the same stature as they were here, they were always basically just local clubs and the broad based franchise model has been in place there in one form or another since the 60s ever since their first attempt at a national league. They do however have quite a historic long running cup competition though (100+ years i believe, and many of the names on the trophy from 50+ yes are ago are ethnic ones)

And also re embracing active support, you won’t get any arguments from me but it is worth noting that in the US aside from the odd random incident they also don’t have any history of crowd trouble to factor in. Their supporter groups by and large aren’t demographically comparable or comparable in mentality to the likes of RBB or north terrace

Agreed, thats what I meant about their fanbase not being somethign Ic an relate too.. The franchise nature of ALL their sport is well establsihed and fandome is transactional.. They BUY experience and merchandise they dont LIVE or DIE for the club. A day at the soccer or football or baseball in the states is a recreational activity for them.. They have a culture of standing around the carpark eating and drinking and not even WATCHING the game ffs...
I dont know about you but come this Thursday at 7.30pm Im in church having a religious experience

 

[Stu]

The MLS is definitely a unique eco-system and one that may not translate to Australia for the exact reasons you mention @Monoethnic Social Club and @Glenardo. I know they tried very hard early on to make the experience as 'family friendly' as possible, and the clubs and leagues saw the active fans as a distraction/bother to work with, not working with stadiums to allow flags, drums, banners, in the grounds.

Once the league started to embrace that uniqueness, and not caring if their main demographic was men in the 15-35 cateogory, the league started to thrive. While MLS is unique from other American sports, it is still much more like US franchise sports than it is European football.

Here, whatever is the most successful model for Australian football to be the best it can be is, will similarly be unique to our sporting landscape but also somewhat different from European football and possibly a little like the MLS, purely because our culture has been influenced by both Europe AND the US since World War 2. That's not how I'd prefer it, but I think it's the reality we are stuck with.

Hopefully, the APL learns that Australian crowds can't be enticed long-term by highly gimmicky marketing, and finds a good middle ground that strikes a balance between broad marketing value and community/grass roots engagement. Even the AFL's gimmicky ideas like 'Gather Round' still try to appeal to history and a connection to the community by playing games at Norwood Oval and in the Barossa Valley at a local ground. It knows it's fan base and knows how far it can push things before the 'traditionalists' get too loud.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

The MLS is definitely a unique eco-system and one that may not translate to Australia for the exact reasons you mention @Monoethnic Social Club and @Glenardo. I know they tried very hard early on to make the experience as 'family friendly' as possible, and the clubs and leagues saw the active fans as a distraction/bother to work with, not working with stadiums to allow flags, drums, banners, in the grounds.

Once the league started to embrace that uniqueness, and not caring if their main demographic was men in the 15-35 cateogory, the league started to thrive. While MLS is unique from other American sports, it is still much more like US franchise sports than it is European football.

Here, whatever is the most successful model for Australian football to be the best it can be is, will similarly be unique to our sporting landscape but also somewhat different from European football and possibly a little like the MLS, purely because our culture has been influenced by both Europe AND the US since World War 2. That's not how I'd prefer it, but I think it's the reality we are stuck with.

Hopefully, the APL learns that Australian crowds can't be enticed long-term by highly gimmicky marketing, and finds a good middle ground that strikes a balance between broad marketing value and community/grass roots engagement. Even the AFL's gimmicky ideas like 'Gather Round' still try to appeal to history and a connection to the community by playing games at Norwood Oval and in the Barossa Valley at a local ground. It knows it's fan base and knows how far it can push things before the 'traditionalists' get too loud.

For me as an outsider the Aleague was at its best when the APL (then FFA) simply got the fuck out of the way and let the fans create their own narrative and atmosphere.... Naming derbies, rival rounds, gimmicks are all family friendly bullshit, at its core football is one tribe against another not a demographic against market researchers.

 

[Glenardo]

The MLS is definitely a unique eco-system and one that may not translate to Australia for the exact reasons you mention @Monoethnic Social Club and @Glenardo. I know they tried very hard early on to make the experience as 'family friendly' as possible, and the clubs and leagues saw the active fans as a distraction/bother to work with, not working with stadiums to allow flags, drums, banners, in the grounds.

Once the league started to embrace that uniqueness, and not caring if their main demographic was men in the 15-35 cateogory, the league started to thrive. While MLS is unique from other American sports, it is still much more like US franchise sports than it is European football.

Here, whatever is the most successful model for Australian football to be the best it can be is, will similarly be unique to our sporting landscape but also somewhat different from European football and possibly a little like the MLS, purely because our culture has been influenced by both Europe AND the US since World War 2. That's not how I'd prefer it, but I think it's the reality we are stuck with.

Hopefully, the APL learns that Australian crowds can't be enticed long-term by highly gimmicky marketing, and finds a good middle ground that strikes a balance between broad marketing value and community/grass roots engagement. Even the AFL's gimmicky ideas like 'Gather Round' still try to appeal to history and a connection to the community by playing games at Norwood Oval and in the Barossa Valley at a local ground. It knows it's fan base and knows how far it can push things before the 'traditionalists' get too loud.

Have said all this on here before but ..and we all know it’s easy to say in hindsight but the fa/APL would probably have been better off trying to integrate the old with the new than the path they’ve taken. Have said before; admitting the likes of western and MacArthur over existing clubs has proven to be the final straw for many because it’s invalidated many of the previous excuses for excluding traditional clubs. Just because the initial nsl era franchises/non-ethnically affiliated entities in Sydney and Melbourne didn’t end up succeeding, it didn’t mean it was the fault of the traditional clubs for existing, they just weren’t done right. You’ll notice the afl and nrl both have their traditional clubs and newer franchises. At the very least the powers that be should have been more open to admitting traditional clubs once the a league got going. Their clear refusal to do so has essentially radicalised the traditional clubs who had previously accepted the franchise model because they felt change was no longer possible in through the offical channels. Let’s be honest, if they’d let in say, Hellas, Marconi, Wollongong etc it probably would have extended an olive branch and provided some incentive to other traditional clubs that if you are ambitious enough/good enough there’s a place for you and we wouldn’t have the Cold War we have now

 

[Stu]

For me as an outsider the Aleague was at its best when the APL (then FFA) simply got the fuck out of the way and let the fans create their own narrative and atmosphere.... Naming derbies, rival rounds, gimmicks are all family friendly bullshit, at its core football is one tribe against another not a demographic against market researchers.

Couldn't agree more. They've realised several times they need to embrace that tribal element (even using it in their marketing), but they don't seem to know how to react when there are issues in the media. The moment there is, they throw the fans under the bus. I'm not saying just let the bad eggs run riot, but don't overreact every time there's some bad press. The people that enjoy the games because of that tribalism aren't going to run away scared because the Herald Sun says we're all thugs and hooligans.

If/when they mature enough to know not to pander to the established football codes and their media cronies, then we will see proper, sustainable growth. If they want to have gimmicky stuff on the side for kids, I don't see the harm in it. But only if it's in addition to the tribalism, rather than instead of.

 

[theFOOTBALLlover]

Have said all this on here before but and all know it’s easy to say in hindsight but the fa/APL would probably have been better off trying to integrate the old with the new than the path they’ve taken. Have said before; admitting the likes of western and MacArthur over existing clubs has proven to be the final straw for many because invalidated many of the previous excuses for excluding traditional clubs. Just because the initial nsl era franchises/non-ethnically affiliated entities in Sydney and Melbourne didn’t end up succeeding, it didn’t mean it was the fault of the traditional clubs for existing. You’ll notice the afl and nrl both have their traditional clubs and newer franchises. At the very least the powers that be should have been more open to admitting traditional clubs once the a league got going. Their clear refusal to do so has essentially radicalised the traditional clubs who had previously accepted the franchise model because they felt change was no longer possible in through the offical channels. Let’s be honest, if they’d let in say, Hellas, marconi, Wollongong etc it probably would have extended an olive branch and provided some insensitive to other traditional clubs that if you are ambitious enough/good enough there’s a place for you and we wouldn’t have the Cold War we have now

Completely agree.

 

[Stu]

Have said all this on here before but and all know it’s easy to say in hindsight but the fa/APL would probably have been better off trying to integrate the old with the new than the path they’ve taken. Have said before; admitting the likes of western and MacArthur over existing clubs has proven to be the final straw for many because invalidated many of the previous excuses for excluding traditional clubs. Just because the initial nsl era franchises/non-ethnically affiliated entities in Sydney and Melbourne didn’t end up succeeding, it didn’t mean it was the fault of the traditional clubs for existing. You’ll notice the afl and nrl both have their traditional clubs and newer franchises. At the very least the powers that be should have been more open to admitting traditional clubs once the a league got going. Their clear refusal to do so has essentially radicalised the traditional clubs who had previously accepted the franchise model because they felt change was no longer possible in through the offical channels. Let’s be honest, if they’d let in say, Hellas, marconi, Wollongong etc it probably would have extended an olive branch and provided some insensitive to other traditional clubs that if you are ambitious enough/good enough there’s a place for you and we wouldn’t have the Cold War we have now

Spot on. It's self-interest and greed - pure and simple - and it's the sport and the fans that suffer as a result.