Poppa Out

[Robbos]

It's easy to say there was no downfall when you put it like that. But remember, there was a point where we dropped to 102 in the rankings in 2014. If that is not a downfall, I'm not sure what is.

We may have qualified for the events, but we didn't really do very well in them or have much success other than 2015 Ange Asia Cup. We've also made it out of the group stages 3 times now, but we should still be looking at how we perform and compete in these games.

Like you said we won 2015 Asian cup.
In 2022 made last 16 and only lost 2-1 to the eventual champions.
In 2018 we also lost 2-1 to the eventual champions.
In 2014 with a very young team we took it to Holland and Chile.
In 2010, 2 sent offs destroyed our campaign.

All this done with some of the worst football administrators, like we have had for 50 years and hardly any government money.

We are not Brazil.

 

[Cunningstunt]

The problem Pim had was expectation at the time. The general public assumed we would win in Asia and compete at the WC. Italy had won in 06. We had been cheated against Italy. Football people thought we should dominate/control matches with our style of play. Complete fantasy.

Pim was successful in qualifying. He was winning but there was discontent with how. This was okay for the general public. But the football media at the time did not like his style. Much closer to Arnold and Popa than Guus. This embarrassingly came out in questions about why he wasn't playing two strikers. But the real angst was around the style of play.

This culminated with the loss to Germany. Where both football people and the general public had their fantasies shattered. Pim setup to get a result. Smart decision, didn't get the outcome on the day against a vastly superior side. Foster embarrassed himself, Murray needed to redact his book, others idiotically talked about a lack of a striker (including the Foxsports guys). The general public realised we weren't going to win a world cup and the cultural place of the socceroos faded (much like is happening with the Matildas now after the home world cup).

 

[zimbos05]

Like you said we won 2015 Asian cup.
In 2022 made last 16 and only lost 2-1 to the eventual champions.
In 2018 we also lost 2-1 to the eventual champions.
In 2014 with a very young team we took it to Holland and Chile.
In 2010, 2 sent offs destroyed our campaign.

All this done with some of the worst football administrators, like we have had for 50 years and hardly any government money.

We are not Brazil.

I'm not sure what point you think I'm making, but I was not talking about the individual campaigns. Of course we are not Brazil and I'm not saying we should have won those comps, but let's be honest, we did have a downfall. Falling to 102 in the rankings is an indication of a downfall.

2019 Asia Cup - Lost to UAE in Quarters
2023 Asia Cup - Lost in Quarters to South Korea

Selective stats are also easy to paint a picture. 2018 we also lost to Peru and Denmark and finished bottom of the group with a -3 GD. Take out the France game if you want, and it's still a terrible campaign.

I'd say both of those would be considered failures, particularly 2019. Even with limited budget and such, it's still ok to say we got it wrong at times. Arnie the first time was the wrong choicer. Holger was the wrong choice.

 

[Alex M]

I'd say both of those would be considered failures, particularly 2019. Even with limited budget and such, it's still ok to say we got it wrong at times. Arnie the first time was the wrong choicer. Holger was the wrong choice.

Arnie was just a fill in then as the person they wanted still had a job with South Korea. Way too early in his coaching career to manage a national team at a major tournament. Holger was a disappointment and never really tried to develop anything. 3 lost years with him.

 

[kiro kompiro]

We hired an overseas manager because we accepted after Hiddink that we needed to in order to progress.

We also pride ourselves on not being bullshitters and not having a thin skin. But when that manager expresses his honest opinion-which was right-we take offense.

And that's what it was. It wasn't that he was wrong. Its that he said it to our faces, and we got offended.

 

[kiro kompiro]

The problem Pim had was expectation at the time. The general public assumed we would win in Asia and compete at the WC. Italy had won in 06. We had been cheated against Italy. Football people thought we should dominate/control matches with our style of play. Complete fantasy.

Pim was successful in qualifying. He was winning but there was discontent with how. This was okay for the general public. But the football media at the time did not like his style. Much closer to Arnold and Popa than Guus. This embarrassingly came out in questions about why he wasn't playing two strikers. But the real angst was around the style of play.

This culminated with the loss to Germany. Where both football people and the general public had their fantasies shattered. Pim setup to get a result. Smart decision, didn't get the outcome on the day against a vastly superior side. Foster embarrassed himself, Murray needed to redact his book, others idiotically talked about a lack of a striker (including the Foxsports guys). The general public realised we weren't going to win a world cup and the cultural place of the socceroos faded (much like is happening with the Matildas now after the home world cup).

AFAIR To which he replied that he plays with three, haha

 

[kiro kompiro]

Arnie was just a fill in then as the person they wanted still had a job with South Korea. Way too early in his coaching career to manage a national team at a major tournament. Holger was a disappointment and never really tried to develop anything. 3 lost years with him.

The thing about Arnold is that he closer to Verbeek than we care to admit. His coaching is heavily influenced under the Dutch: he played there, he was also understudy to Hiddink and very pragmatic.

 

[riquelmes_laces]

The thing about Arnold is that he closer to Verbeek than we care to admit. His coaching is heavily influenced under the Dutch: he played there, he was also understudy to Hiddink and very pragmatic.

I haven't seen anyone say Arnold was idealistic like Ange is.

What Arnold did right was couple Verbeek's pragmatism with Australia's Guts & Glory. It may not have been the prettiest at times, but at the World Cup it was highly effective.

 

[Robbos]

I'm not sure what point you think I'm making, but I was not talking about the individual campaigns. Of course we are not Brazil and I'm not saying we should have won those comps, but let's be honest, we did have a downfall. Falling to 102 in the rankings is an indication of a downfall.

2019 Asia Cup - Lost to UAE in Quarters
2023 Asia Cup - Lost in Quarters to South Korea

Selective stats are also easy to paint a picture. 2018 we also lost to Peru and Denmark and finished bottom of the group with a -3 GD. Take out the France game if you want, and it's still a terrible campaign.

I'd say both of those would be considered failures, particularly 2019. Even with limited budget and such, it's still ok to say we got it wrong at times. Arnie the first time was the wrong choicer. Holger was the wrong choice.

I think you will find we drew with Denmark.

Holger was terrible & the GG push on too long hence 2014 was bad.

 

[Hounddog]

We need to focus on developing quality players.

All coaches need a bit more talent to work with.

This 2026 squad is a big step in the right direction, and IMO young players seem to be getting an opportunity at the right times.

All good coaches should adapt their style to the talent they are confident that they have.

Is there an outstanding candidate for the next coach?

I don't know of any Australians that are or were coaching in the major overseas competitions, except for Ange, who seemed to fail in the end.

 

[zimbos05]

I think you will find we drew with Denmark.

My bad, we did draw. We still finished last with -3GD.

Holger was terrible & the GG push on too long hence 2014 was bad.

That's my point. We had a downfall. We dropped to 102nd in the world. That's a downfall. Pim was the man at the start of that fall. He didn't generate new players or leave anything significant to build on

 

[Mr Cleansheets]

I don't know of any Australians that are or were coaching in the major overseas competitions, except for Ange, who seemed to fail in the end.

I wouldn't call Ange's most recent work a failure.

Sure, he got sacked twice in quick succession but I regard his Spurs tenure as pretty successful - a fifth place and a Euro trophy, plus a style of football that had the whole of England talking (mostly in a good way).

As for Forest... as he said himself: "What was I thinking?"

He was thinking of the 3 mill pounds salary, and who wouldn't. I don't regard that episode as part of his real work - he needs a full pre-season and some control of players in and out to impose his system.

 

[riquelmes_laces]

I wouldn't call Ange's most recent work a failure.

Sure, he got sacked twice in quick succession but I regard his Spurs tenure as pretty successful - a fifth place and a Euro trophy, plus a style of football that had the whole of England talking (mostly in a good way).

As for Forest... as he said himself: "What was I thinking?"

He was thinking of the 3 mill pounds salary, and who wouldn't. I don't regard that episode as part of his real work - he needs a full pre-season and some control of players in and out to impose his system.

Watch De Zerbi get a generational transfer window and still balls it up and finish trophyless.

Pencil it in right now.

 

[Alex M]

My bad, we did draw. We still finished last with -3GD.


That's my point. We had a downfall. We dropped to 102nd in the world. That's a downfall. Pim was the man at the start of that fall. He didn't generate new players or leave anything significant to build on

Pim brought lots of players into the team during his tenure. Only Mile really measured up. Holman started to bloom under him although he had his debut before Pim. Pim also worked a lot with the youth setup trying to get a consistent style through the squads so they could fit into the systems better. He left us a lot to build on, we just changed direction. after he left. We didn't drop because of Pim. We dropped because we stopped producing top quality footballers.

 

[kiro kompiro]

and would have been interpreted by some just the same - sinking some hopes - ofcourse, then some may have been inspired to work even harder.
Either ither.

On reflection, his comment was not helpful to the fledgling local league.

In his defense he was likely ignorant of the football milieu he found himself, where unlike where he came from, football was not the most popular sport, but barely surviving to exist as a professional sport.

 

[kiro kompiro]

Pim brought lots of players into the team during his tenure. Only Mile really measured up. Holman started to bloom under him although he had his debut before Pim. Pim also worked a lot with the youth setup trying to get a consistent style through the squads so they could fit into the systems better. He left us a lot to build on, we just changed direction. after he left. We didn't drop because of Pim. We dropped because we stopped producing top quality footballers.

IMO the most tangible thing from his tenure (which seems an obvious thing now) is that he preferenced selecting players that were actually getting game minutes at their clubs.

Oh and picking Chris Coyne and Richard Garcia, ex-Colchester greats.

 

[zimbos05]

Pim brought lots of players into the team during his tenure. Only Mile really measured up. Holman started to bloom under him although he had his debut before Pim. Pim also worked a lot with the youth setup trying to get a consistent style through the squads so they could fit into the systems better. He left us a lot to build on, we just changed direction. after he left. We didn't drop because of Pim. We dropped because we stopped producing top quality footballers.

That's fair. I wasn't trying to imply the fall was all him, but I do think he opened the gates for us to do so. His style of football didn't really develop the tactical and skilful aspects of the players. I do put a lot of blame at the FA. The structure of our football system has not been so well run at times, and often at times, run as a business.

 

[grazorblade]

I'm not sure where the downfall was? We've made every World cup since & now has made it twice out of the group.

we had a pretty bleak period for both results (ELO) and player development between 2012ish and the Peru game in 2022. Things seem to be getting better for player development, though not where we were before. Being in asia, there is an opportunity to have better results even if our team isn't as strong on paper as it was during the height of the gg

 

[grazorblade]

Here is our elo: continuous improvement during the NSL era, peaking with the golden generation. Crash around 2011,2012 hitting rock bottom for around 10 years and now a recovery the last four years

 

[Robbos]

we had a pretty bleak period for both results (ELO) and player development between 2012ish and the Peru game in 2022. Things seem to be getting better for player development, though not where we were before. Being in asia, there is an opportunity to have better results even if our team isn't as strong on paper as it was during the height of the gg

Now, I respect your analysis especially in your knowledge of youth football, also not sure what this ELO is (my bad), but while not at GG level, we did produce some decent players during this time Mooy, top 2-3 midfielders ever, Rogic, probably our most skillful midfielder, Luongo, high ceiling but poor decisions & injuries curtail him, but he did finally play EPL, Kruse also played Bunesliga & Leckie also Bunesliga is a socceroos legend.
We also won our only trophy during this time, we failed twice with the GG.