Green & Gold FC podcast

[Keeper66]

Do you have a source?

I must admit I was really surprised reading that it wasn't ? I almost thought it was some official KNVB ancillary website too.

It will be a relief knowing if Euroroos play in the Eerste it is pro, and knowing Netherlands has 2 pro leagues. It becomes an excellent destination.

When Rob Baan brought KNVB coaching luminaries Ad Derkson and Arie Schans to Aus in 2008, they thought the then AL was equivalent to the upper Eerste teams on the ladder and the lowest Eredivisie teams on the table. Much worse tactically though.

Ad and Arie didn't rate the lower ranked teams of the Eredivisie though!

FFS, do you have a source saying it is semi-pro? Vaguely referencing what you “almost thought” is an “official KNVB ancillary website” is not much to hang your hat on.

While I can’t find a statement on KNVB.com that says “the Eerste Divisie is a fully professional league”, there is enough information on there, and multiple other websites, about the league and the participating clubs that strongly indicate it is a professional league. Conversely I can find nothing suggesting it is a semi-pro league.

Rather than just rely on your memory of what might have been an “official KNVB ancillary website”, do a bit more digging. Google is your friend.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

I read a recent overview of the Eredivisie and Eerste. It claimed the Eerste was semi- pro. I was surprised to say the least.

Thats why, Im sorry to say, your opinions on football are often mocked.. Football isnt a hobby to some of us, something to dabble in in retirement, read a few books, do an online course, get invovled and jump online to cos play being an expert.. Football is a lifelong passion.

If you dont know who Vitesse or Roda are as clubs and what they have contributed to Dutch, let alone European football over the decades then what sort of KNVB acolyte can you really claim to be?

 

[grazorblade]

Thats why, Im sorry to say, your opinions on football are often mocked.. Football isnt a hobby to some of us, something to dabble in in retirement, read a few books, do an online course, get invovled and jump online to cos play being an expert.. Football is a lifelong passion.

If you dont know who Vitesse or Roda are as clubs and what they have contributed to Dutch, let alone European football over the decades then what sort of KNVB acolyte can you really claim to be?

crikey that's harsh! I watch ereste divisie matches when available (rarely) and I couldn't tell you which teams are getting paid

 

[BA81]

crikey that's harsh! I watch ereste divisie matches when available (rarely) and I couldn't tell you which teams are getting paid.

That’s one thing but for Decentric to state in that article-reply about Clairefontaine etc. that there is supposedly a strong influence/element within current ️ youth-development, well respectfully..there’d be something amiss if such a claim wasn’t getting any pushback. And I’m speaking as someone who’s always had time for his views on prior incarnations of this forum..

 

[grazorblade]

That’s one thing but for Decentric to state in that article-reply about Clairefontaine etc. that there is supposedly a strong influence/element within current ️ youth-development, well respectfully..there’d be something amiss if such a claim wasn’t getting any pushback. And I’m speaking as someone who’s always had time for his views on prior incarnations of this forum..

I was interested in his answer to your quesiton, so wasn't complaining about that (hoping he still answers!) I've heard some little specifics, the dutch youth coaching involves learning some skills in slow motion whereas continental allegedly doesn't, but that's a bit vague and outside my knowledge

I was just reacting to the requirement that you know the pro-semipro status of 2nd tier dutch sides to not be mocked!

 

[Decentric]

Yeah I was looking into them 12 months ago (can't believe it's been that long already). They have an interesting pyramid which could help guide us towards connecting ours.

FFS, do you have a source saying it is semi-pro? Vaguely referencing what you “almost thought” is an “official KNVB ancillary website” is not much to hang your hat on.

While I can’t find a statement on KNVB.com that says “the Eerste Divisie is a fully professional league”, there is enough information on there, and multiple other websites, about the league and the participating clubs that strongly indicate it is a professional league. Conversely I can find nothing suggesting it is a semi-pro league.

Rather than just rely on your memory of what might have been an “official KNVB ancillary website”, do a bit more digging. Google is your friend.

I'm not asking this question in any way aggressively, Keeper. I want to believe you. I want your info to be accurate and mine wrong.

We read so many things on the internet, one can't remember sources. I'm gobsmacked the source was hopefully wrong, because I couldn't believe the Eerste was supposedly a second tier semi-pro league.

Happy Guus has provided info to the contrary with that interesting graph.

I'm also told off line by a few mates that Google AI sources are often incorrect - just in the last few days when we were looking up cricket info.

 

[Decentric]

That’s one thing but for Decentric to state in that article-reply about Clairefontaine etc. that there is supposedly a strong influence/element within current ️ youth-development, well respectfully..there’d be something amiss if such a claim wasn’t getting any pushback. And I’m speaking as someone who’s always had time for his views on prior incarnations of this forum..

There is.

I've been trained and inculcated in coach education from 2008 -2014 in Aus. Staff from FFA Tech Dept ( about 13 coaches) visited the then 8 designated football powerhouses to acquire coaching methodology and devise a NC, ostensibly based on world's best practice.

The 4 main countries for the NC are Netherlands, France, Spain, Germany. I've been lucky enough to do outright KNVB coach education, and the NC. There are subtle differences.

I've also been under the close tutelage of one of the 12 NC writers.

 

[Decentric]

I was interested in his answer to your quesiton, so wasn't complaining about that (hoping he still answers!) I've heard some little specifics, the dutch youth coaching involves learning some skills in slow motion whereas continental allegedly doesn't, but that's a bit vague and outside my knowledge

I was just reacting to the requirement that you know the pro-semipro status of 2nd tier dutch sides to not be mocked!

You've listened well.

I think it is Berger's lack of youth coaching background that becomes apparent here.

 

[Decentric]

Thats why, Im sorry to say, your opinions on football are often mocked.. Football isnt a hobby to some of us, something to dabble in in retirement, read a few books, do an online course, get invovled and jump online to cos play being an expert.. Football is a lifelong passion.

If you dont know who Vitesse or Roda are as clubs and what they have contributed to Dutch, let alone European football over the decades then what sort of KNVB acolyte can you really claim to be?

It is a reflection of the knowledge base/experience of the people - if they mock what I present. What are their football credentials regarding performance? What specific facets are flawed - and - what do they suggest instead?

One hears the same increasingly universal football jargon used all the time from TV pundits like Phil Moss, a former AL coach.

I'm going to keep presenting it - providing insights into contemporary coaching practices.

There are now a number of semi- pro and 1 pro-trained coaches on G and G. There are a few players who've played at a high level too. None of them have cast aspersions on my knowledge base acquired from others, or reputable sources. One is quite competitive - often being pedantic about any grammatical mistake, my sources, or any comment they hope to refute. Like a modern day 'gotchya reporter'.

Some coaches are inherently competitive. For mine, the more coaches who are better trained, the better for Aus football. On 442 Performance section, the state FFA TD said I could email posters training ground practices and exercises, that we had access to, others may not have. I sent it out to 30 odd posters, all coaches, most who wrote back and said how useful it was. The state TD said I couldn't post it for public consumption - which would have been ideal. FFA then were trying to make coaches pay for content/ coaching practices.

I'm no luminary, but I have worked under the jurisdiction of heaps who are - and I'm quite a good student. It has been their job to ensure people like me are as effective as possible as a coach in the system - whether rep coaching or NPL TD roles. Moreover, that I'm a teacher of vast experience helps considerably.

I have coached football for 14 years too - in a range of settings with a lot of other coaches, including globally renowned ones. A bad back curtailed coaching.

If you are as passionate as you say you are about football, Mono, how much coaching have you done to help the next gen? It might be time to get your tracksuit on, do some coaching courses, and get involved in coaching, mate. Banging the sheds shouting, 'Hellas, Hellas', at games is only one part of the football experience.

Your coaches at South Melb, would likely be adhering to similar practices I present. Otherwise they would be left behind.
Approach the SM Tech Dir and ask him/her how you can best serve the SM milieu as a prospective coach? Also, tell him/her you think the KNVB methodology and Dutch coaching is all rubbish - and see what the response is.

 

[BA81]

There is.

I've been trained and inculcated in coach education from 2008 -2014 in Aus. Staff from FFA Tech Dept ( about 13 coaches) visited the then 8 designated football powerhouses to acquire coaching methodology and devise a NC, ostensibly based on world's best practice.

The 4 main countries for the NC are Netherlands, France, Spain, Germany. I've been lucky enough to do outright KNVB coach education, and the NC. There are subtle differences.

I've also been under the close tutelage of one of the 12 NC writers.

Fair enough then.

I just wish Popa’s(and Arnie’s for that matter) actual coaching-style were like what one immediately associates w/KNVB or Clairefontaine ideology, or ideally a mix of both

 

[Decentric]

Fair enough then.

I just wish Popa’s(and Arnie’s for that matter) actual coaching-style were like what one immediately associates w/KNVB or Clairefontaine ideology, or ideally a mix of both

Arnie trained a lot in the Netherlands to acquire coach education. He was a bit old school, but he has been blown out by the quality of the whiz gen under the age of 24. He also learned a lot from Guus and Pim.

Popa is playing contemporary coaching formation, but it appears to be his adherence to minimal Squeezing, (off the ball pressure), that is perplexing.

Both coaches' organisation, is very much KNVB and Clarefontaine based. If you go back to Holger and Frank Farina, Eddie Thompson, they are very different. Terry Venables was a luminary in that era for English coaches.

Off forum in the last few days I've met quite a few fans, players and coaches. Everyone seems even more dissatisfied with Popa, than his biggest detractors on here! They haven't really had a lot of bona fide discussion about it though, with others presenting alternative views.

 

[BA81]

Arnie trained a lot in the Netherlands to acquire coach education. He was a bit old school, but he has ben blown out by the quality of the whiz gen under the age of 24. He also learned a lot from Guus and Pim.

Popa is playing contemporary coaching formation, but it appears to be his adherence to minimal Squeezing, (off the ball pressure), that is perplexing.

Off forum in the last few days I've met quite a few fans, players and coaches. Everyone seems even more dissatisfied with Popa, than his biggest detractors on here! They haven't really had a lot of bona fide discussion about it though, with others presenting alternative views.

Bottom-line is, I just want to see us play sexy-football; IMHO we didn’t have the cattle for it 4 years ago..but now we do.

 

[Decentric]

Bottom-line is, I just want to see us play sexy-football; IMHO we didn’t have the cattle for it 4 years ago..but now we do.

I think we are getting there. The younger players can play out through gegenpessing better than the older players, but the younger players aren't experienced enough yet.

 

[Keeper66]

I'm not asking this question in any way aggressively, Keeper. I want to believe you. I want your info to be accurate and mine wrong.

We read so many things on the internet, one can't remember sources. I'm gobsmacked the source was hopefully wrong, because I couldn't believe the Eerste was supposedly a second tier semi-pro league.

Happy Guus has provided info to the contrary with that interesting graph.

I'm also told off line by a few mates that Google AI sources are often incorrect - just in the last few days when we were looking up cricket info.

No problem.

Just to clarify something that I think maybe you are misinterpreting (apologies if you aren't). Yes, Google AI is not always correct, as it just takes info from whatever sources it finds related to your query. So the trick is not to take Google AI as gospel, but investigate the individual search results that come from your query. Not all of these will necessarily be right (hence why Google AI sometimes isn't right), but by digging around enough in these individual web sites/documents you will quite likely be able to separate the fact from the fiction.

 

[Decentric]

No problem.

Just to clarify something that I think maybe you are misinterpreting (apologies if you aren't). Yes, Google AI is not always correct, as it just takes info from whatever sources it finds related to your query. So the trick is not to take Google AI as gospel, but investigate the individual search results that come from your query. Not all of these will necessarily be right (hence why Google AI sometimes isn't right), but by digging around enough in these individual web sites/documents you will quite likely be able to separate the fact from the fiction.

Thanks a bunch!

Coincidentally, off forum I've suddenly found that Google searches aren't as accurate as I have always thought. I was looking up cricket players on Google, and a few mates were saying they aren't accurate re specific players.

Getting back to the source for Dutch football leagues, it was written by a Dutch writer with a name something like Henk van Doogan. Lots of photos were presented and it described the salient characteristics all the Dutch football leagues. It seemed such a reputable source to be incorrect.

Just recently I thought what is Josh Nisbet doing in a semi-pro league, the Eeerste? Now it seems like a better option than Scotland top league for him if the Eerste is pro. Dutch coaches won't worry about height. They introduced the notion in Aus, that one does not have to be a big, strapping CB to be effective. Hopefully, JN can move up into the Eredivisie.

 

[Decentric]

Another idea I'm going to posit for a Podcast, is G and G trying to get an interview with Popa.

He is sometimes irritated by some dumb questions from football journos in press conferences - many who ask populist questions. Popa isn't being questioned by a Michael Cox, Simon Kuper ( Stefan S's co-writer), or Ralph Honigsten.

I'll ask him all sorts of questions he has never had before in public. Not wanting to catch him out, but presenting an opportunity to provide some in depth analysis and perspectives.

One assertion he made recently is that until Aus played Canada, the Socceroos had been losing more 1v1 duels than they won against Saudi, Japan B and the Kiwis. I have data showing Aus dominated all three teams in 1v1s! The closest 1v1 contest was against Japan A.

Aus also beat Canada in 1v1s, but by a lower margin than they beat the USA and Kiwis.

I'd like to pose specific questions about Hrustic and Boyle - how they are justifying their places, given the unfavourable data I'm getting compared to nearly everybody else? My theory is they are flat track bullies, who looked good in the first round of WCQs.

In terms of Pressing and Squeezing, I'd like to know why he constantly opts for a compact shape in Half Presses and Partial Presses, after some occasional aggressive Squeezing in the attacking third?

He might have a very plausible reason for this, but may not want to share it publicly. It was the case when Phil Moss addressed a Tas C Licence intake audience. Phil had to check there were no other AL club coaches in the room!

Other teams are using aggressive Squeezing and Full Pressing against Aus - with great effect! Why aren't we returning it?

Also, how effective Metcalfe is, or Rowles is defensively at Left Wing Back, but how much harder it is to identify what they do well compared to Iran or Bos.

Something Grazor has seen as well, is the differing quality and range of passing lanes opened by multiple players when a person on the ball receives it, being quicker to assemble multiple passing options in some scenarios - depending on the Squeezing intensity level of opposing teams.

The intent is to have a player opening passing lanes diagonal left, diagonal right, short sharper diag and long sharper diag.

The reality is that Popa won't be available, but it is more likely the assistant coaches could be - Okon or Foxe.

The former is very serious, plus I'd like to highlight a few things his son does better than him already, whilst still having Okon Sr's strengths.

Foxe - appearing in the media decades ago as an EPL player, he didn't have the cognitive acumen of an Arnie, Ange, Popa, Muscat, Aloisi, Pim , Holger, Bert VM or Guus, or Rob Baan or Han Berger.

 

[ashtongate]

It is a reflection of the knowledge base/experience of the people - if they mock what I present. What are their football credentials regarding performance? What specific facets are flawed - and - what do they suggest instead?

One hears the same increasingly universal football jargon used all the time from TV pundits like Phil Moss, a former AL coach.

I'm going to keep presenting it - providing insights into contemporary coaching practices.

There are now a number of semi- pro and 1 pro-trained coaches on G and G. There are a few players who've played at a high level too. None of them have cast aspersions on my knowledge base acquired from others, or reputable sources. One is quite competitive - often being pedantic about any grammatical mistake, my sources, or any comment they hope to refute. Like a modern day 'gotchya reporter'.

Some coaches are inherently competitive. For mine, the more coaches who are better trained, the better for Aus football. On 442 Performance section, the state FFA TD said I could email posters training ground practices and exercises, that we had access to, others may not have. I sent it out to 30 odd posters, all coaches, most who wrote back and said how useful it was. The state TD said I couldn't post it for public consumption - which would have been ideal. FFA then were trying to make coaches pay for content/ coaching practices.

I'm no luminary, but I have worked under the jurisdiction of heaps who are - and I'm quite a good student. It has been their job to ensure people like me are as effective as possible as a coach in the system - whether rep coaching or NPL TD roles. Moreover, that I'm a teacher of vast experience helps considerably.

I have coached football for 14 years too - in a range of settings with a lot of other coaches, including globally renowned ones. A bad back curtailed coaching.

If you are as passionate as you say you are about football, Mono, how much coaching have you done to help the next gen? It might be time to get your tracksuit on, do some coaching courses, and get involved in coaching, mate. Banging the sheds shouting, 'Hellas, Hellas', at games is only one part of the football experience.

Your coaches at South Melb, would likely be adhering to similar practices I present. Otherwise they would be left behind.
Approach the SM Tech Dir and ask him/her how you can best serve the SM milieu as a prospective coach? Also, tell him/her you think the KNVB methodology and Dutch coaching is all rubbish - and see what the response is.

Coaching isn't the be all and end all of football culture.

You don't seem to have much idea about what attracts people to follow football.

Coaching is just a very small strand in a vast kaleidoscope of cultural and personal connections that make up football.

"Go away and coach" seems to be your regular response to people who don't quite align to your way of thinking.

 

[grazorblade]

Another idea I'm going to posit for a Podcast, is G and G trying to get an interview with Popa.

He is sometimes irritated by some dumb questions from football journos in press conferences - many who ask populist questions. Popa isn't being questioned by a Michael Cox, Simon Kuper ( Stefan S's co-writer), or Ralph Honigsten.

I'll ask him all sorts of questions he has never had before in public. Not wanting to catch him out, but presenting an opportunity to provide some in depth analysis and perspectives.

One assertion he made recently is that until Aus played Canada, the Socceroos had been losing more 1v1 duels than they won against Saudi, Japan B and the Kiwis. I have data showing Aus dominated all three teams in 1v1s! The closest 1v1 contest was against Japan A.

Aus also beat Canada in 1v1s, but by a lower margin than they beat the USA and Kiwis.

I'd like to pose specific questions about Hrustic and Boyle - how they are justifying their places, given the unfavourable data I'm getting compared to nearly everybody else? My theory is they are flat track bullies, who looked good in the first round of WCQs.

In terms of Pressing and Squeezing, I'd like to know why he constantly opts for a compact shape in Half Presses and Partial Presses, after some occasional aggressive Squeezing in the attacking third?

He might have a very plausible reason for this, but may not want to share it publicly. It was the case when Phil Moss addressed a Tas C Licence intake audience. Phil had to check there were no other AL club coaches in the room!

Other teams are using aggressive Squeezing and Full Pressing against Aus - with great effect! Why aren't we returning it?

Also, how effective Metcalfe is, or Rowles is defensively at Left Wing Back, but how much harder it is to identify what they do well compared to Iran or Bos.

Something Grazor has seen as well, is the differing quality and range of passing lanes opened by multiple players when a person on the ball receives it, being quicker to assemble multiple passing options in some scenarios - depending on the Squeezing intensity level of opposing teams.

The intent is to have a player opening passing lanes diagonal left, diagonal right, short sharper diag and long sharper diag.

The reality is that Popa won't be available, but it is more likely the assistant coaches could be - Okon or Foxe.

The former is very serious, plus I'd like to highlight a few things his son does better than him already, whilst still having Okon Sr's strengths.

Foxe - appearing in the media decades ago as an EPL player, he didn't have the cognitive acumen of an Arnie, Ange, Popa, Muscat, Aloisi, Pim , Holger, Bert VM or Guus, or Rob Baan or Han Berger.

getting an interview with poppa is very difficult!

 

[grazorblade]

I think we are a few years away from sexy football and I'm not sure we achieve it even then

there is clearly a jump in quality of player that we are producing compared to the rest of the a league era but still not a high enough jump for it to be a "golden generation"

to give an intuition, imagine we had a player born 2006 who this season was playing regularly for the top team in the epl, another born 2006 playing regularly for glasgow rangers, or two players born 2005 playing regularly for feyenoord and Zagreb

Career trajectories haven't changed much, the sort of player we are producing will probably have worse club careers than that generation born 1975-80

 

[Keeper66]

Just recently I thought what is Josh Nisbet doing in a semi-pro league, the Eeerste? Now it seems like a better option than Scotland top league for him if the Eerste is pro. Dutch coaches won't worry about height. They introduced the notion in Aus, that one does not have to be a big, strapping CB to be effective. Hopefully, JN can move up into the Eredivisie.

You make some amazing leaps in logic at times. It now seems that you are saying that the Dutch second tier is a better league for Australian players than the Scottish Premiership, based purely on it being a professional league and presumably having Dutch coaches.

I don’t watch the Eerste Divisie, but nothing I’ve read suggests that it is a better standard than the Scottish Prem. In fact I’ve read a number of things suggesting the standard is quite poor. Even if the coaches in the Eerste Divisie are world beaters (and let’s face it, they aren’t or they wouldn’t be coaching there), the standard of play is much more important for the development of senior players (which Nisbet is, he is 26 years old) than the standard of coaching.

I might be wrong and the Eerste might be a great league, but you don’t know that any more than I do.