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HonestSpursFan said:
If the Coalition keeps being useless at federal (and in some states state level) it begs the question where the predicted Liberal seats are coming from. Moderate voters? Popular MPs? Completely random?
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The success the Libs have had since Howard is based on two things. Simultaneously fanning culture war and grievance while presenting themselves as the "sensible" centre right on business and the economy. The audience for culture war is driven by a completely different set of values that over time have been incompatible with the Liberal's centre right instincts. You simply can't govern from out there in an electoral system like ours. Even without a preference system, growing inequality seems here to stay and it's feeding right wing populism which is an insatiable beast. It has no answers, there is no end goal except for the elite to profit from it and tear down any public-interest that stands in the way of their greed.

Courting the far right is pointless, so Hastie is probably the only credible option for the Libs if they are to be anything more than a footnote in the next decade. Hastie has a better chance of winning centre ground back I think the Libs are in an existential crisis.

Labor is attempting to govern from that central ground that used to be the Libs territory. But the warning for Labor is that they risk replicating the errors of the Libs on the centre left. Having it both ways. Neither party is backed by a popular base anymore. There is no voice at those tables for workers and small business owners.
 
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Punchanello said:
The success the Libs have had since Howard is based on two things. Simultaneously fanning culture war and grievance while presenting themselves as the "sensible" centre right on business and the economy. The audience for culture war is driven by a completely different set of values that over time have been incompatible with the Liberal's centre right instincts.

Hastie is probably the only credible option for the Libs if they are to be anything more than a footnote in the next decade. Courting the far right is pointless. You simply can't govern from out there in an electoral system like ours. Labor is attempting to govern from that central ground that used to be the Libs territory. Hastie has a better chance of winning that ground back but either way, I think the Libs are in an existential crisis.
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Howard was always a slimy little opportunistic cunt.

Pauline Hanson was in the Liberal Party, they kicked her out due to her policies then adapted those poliicies as their own and held onto power for a very long time.

Now the Liberal Party are an empty shell owned by News Corp and mining interests and Pauline Hanson's One Nation have taken her policies back so to speak, mainstreamed them and using them to ride their own ascendancy.
 
erogenouszone said:
Howard was always a slimy little opportunistic cunt.
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Yet he won four elections in a row and is regarded as one of our greatest PMs in history.
erogenouszone said:
Now the Liberal Party are an empty shell owned by News Corp and mining interests.
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I really wish the left had a better argument than blaming the media. Are Labor owned by the ABC/SBS?
 
Punchanello said:
The success the Libs have had since Howard is based on two things. Simultaneously fanning culture war and grievance while presenting themselves as the "sensible" centre right on business and the economy. The audience for culture war is driven by a completely different set of values that over time have been incompatible with the Liberal's centre right instincts. You simply can't govern from out there in an electoral system like ours. Even without a preference system, growing inequality seems here to stay and it's feeding right wing populism which is an insatiable beast. It has no answers, there is no end goal except for the elite to profit from it and tear down any public-interest that stands in the way of their greed.

Courting the far right is pointless, so Hastie is probably the only credible option for the Libs if they are to be anything more than a footnote in the next decade. Hastie has a better chance of winning centre ground back I think the Libs are in an existential crisis.

Labor is attempting to govern from that central ground that used to be the Libs territory. But the warning for Labor is that they risk replicating the errors of the Libs on the centre left. Having it both ways. Neither party is backed by a popular base anymore. There is no voice at those tables for workers and small business owners.
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When have the Coalition ever been in power due to culture wars?
 
HonestSpursFan said:
When have the Coalition ever been in power due to culture wars?
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I said it was part of their success. Same Sex Marriage, Net Zero, Republic, Voice to Parliament. All culture war and all of which the Libs had once supported before courting the fringe. Can't forget Tampa, or the divisive games being played after Bondi either. Howard, Morrison and Abbott made an art of it and Turnbull got rolled twice for trying to moderate it.

It's just that now Hanson plays those themes a lot more aggressively with a lot more money that the Liberal party can't compete.
 
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erogenouszone said:
Howard was always a slimy little opportunistic cunt.

Pauline Hanson was in the Liberal Party, they kicked her out due to her policies then adapted those poliicies as their own and held onto power for a very long time.

Now the Liberal Party are an empty shell owned by News Corp and mining interests and Pauline Hanson's One Nation have taken her policies back so to speak, mainstreamed them and using them to ride their own ascendancy.
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They were Howard policies that he espoused during the Peacock Howard wars - she stole them from him.
 
HonestSpursFan said:
Yet he won four elections in a row and is regarded as one of our greatest PMs in history.
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I'll give him credit for the gun buyback....beyond that he rode the economic success Howard and Keating reforms, maintained power through divisive politics which see him reviled in many diverse communities, got us stuck in a forever war based on a lie in Iraq, fuelled intergenerational inequity through pork-barrelling for baby-boomers, destroyed the public service yet somehow oversaw the biggest growth in public expenditure ever seen.
 
Punchanello said:
I'll give him credit for the gun buyback....beyond that he rode the economic success Howard and Keating reforms, maintained power through divisive politics which see him reviled in many diverse communities, got us stuck in a forever war based on a lie in Iraq, fuelled intergenerational inequity through pork-barrelling for baby-boomers, destroyed the public service yet somehow oversaw the biggest growth in public expenditure ever seen.
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Before Howard State debt was low as opposed to Federal debt. This was because debts were controlled by the federal Loan Council who borrowed at lesser rates and then gave tied grants to states for their projects. He decided that the states should raise their own debts and passed the responsibility to the states at a higher cost to Australia. That and a resources boom meant Joe Bloggs down the road could have eliminated federal debt but actually meant that Australians carried more debt than they otherwise would.
 
Punchanello said:
I said it was part of their success. Same Sex Marriage, Net Zero, Republic, Voice to Parliament. All culture war and all of which the Libs had once supported before courting the fringe.
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They never supported becoming a republic or the Voice. A few MPs did but the party always opposed those things. Also, how is that the fringe when the country voted against both of those things?

Same-sex marriage they originally mostly opposed (with some MPs in favour) before reversing over time by supporting it (with some MPs against it). I 100% support marriage equality and Australia proudly voted yes. It’s no longer a debate, no government will ever reverse marriage equality especially with the support it has.

Net zero you have a point and that’s something I’ve been disappointed in them about. Fazing out renewables is possible with a mix of renewables and nuclear.
Punchanello said:
Can't forget Tampa, or the divisive games being played after Bondi either. Howard, Morrison and Abbott made an art of it and Turnbull got rolled twice for trying to moderate it.
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So the Tampa affair involved the MV Tampa, a Norwegian ship, entering Australian waters illegally. I’m not saying they should be permanently blocked from being Australian citizens provided they’re good people but everyone has to follow the rules.

I get the frustration around the federal opposition’s response to Bondi but to be fair it was a case of an Islamist terrorist killing more people than any Australian has since Christchurch and Port Arthur. Blaming the government for letting the men in is obviously baseless given they came here years ago, but it’s perfectly reasonable to say the Bondi shooting should spark a conversation about the radicalisation of Australian Muslims.
 
HonestSpursFan said:
They never supported becoming a republic or the Voice. A few MPs did but the party always opposed those things. Also, how is that the fringe when the country voted against both of those things?
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Howard and Rudd agreed on a referendum on constitutional recognition as far back as 2007. It was Howard who put the question of a republic to a referendum as PM.
 
Punchanello said:
Howard and Rudd agreed on a referendum on constitutional recognition as far back as 2007. It was Howard who put the question of a republic to a referendum as PM.
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and do you think deep down he personally wanted it to go that way meaning yes ?
Not a friggin chance he was a devoted royal licka of old.
He played the game.
 
Punchanello said:
Howard and Rudd agreed on a referendum on constitutional recognition as far back as 2007.
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Constitutional recognition, not a Voice to Parliament. The Voice was only created as an idea recently.
Punchanello said:
It was Howard who put the question of a republic to a referendum as PM.
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He supported holding a referendum but he’s always opposed it. It’s a bit like the French with independence referendums in New Caledonia. Most Caldoches are loyalists but Kanaks and many younger generations want independence so the only way to stop fighting is accords and referendums. Personally I would favour a balanced option: independence but with multiracialism, a Western legal/political system and closely tied with France and Australia, and a fourth referendum of course.
 
While there are of course some distinct challenges beneath the surface, I think a strong case can be made that the Australian economy is showing remarkable resilience.....

And a recent IMF report said it expected Australia to lead major advanced economies in growth throughout 2026 and 27, with a "soft landing" and that's a far better outlook than many European or North American counterparts.

I know it's popular to bash Labor on things like economics, fiscal responsibility etc but it's not all bad.

Take the unemployment rate for instance...It has remained remarkably low by historical standards throughout the Labor years.

 
The resilience is nothing new been going on since the GFC.
That’s credit for either Govs.
The bashing applies both sides just who’s in by what is effecting the economy globally that in turn here.
Increased costs are passed on to you me.
Small business and middle income are being reemed despite your outlook doesn’t lower our tax’s :)

Cost of living is up same applies running your business.
Thankfully we just raise our prices and people still pay :) but it’s one step forward 3 back to the ATO that is squandered.
 
LFC said:
That’s credit for either Govs.
The bashing applies both sides just who’s in by what is effecting the economy globally that in turn here.
Increased costs are passed on to you me.
Small business and middle income are being reemed despite your outlook doesn’t lower our tax’s :)

Cost of living is up same applies running your business.
Thankfully we just raise our prices and people still pay :) but it’s one step forward 3 back to the ATO that is squandered.
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It not "MY" outlook! mate....🤣

I wouldn't have a scooby doo about international economic growth!

I cited the IMF!

And it’s easy for me to say because I'm probably a little bit more self-reliant than your average person when it comes to finances and being able to weather these economic storms..

But I genuinely think Labor has done reasonably well considering the world is pretty fucked right now!

And I don't doubt the LNP would have made a reasonably good job of it either. Rrgardless of who's running the show in Canberra, Australia's resilience in the face of economic uncertainty is rather impressive throughout recent history. Think the late 2000's early 2010's when the global economy collectively shit itself....
 
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