A league youth quality, technically good but physically remedial

[grazorblade]

Probably worth its own thread

Scouts have often made comments that our technical standard is quite high, often good enough for a big 5 league but our physical abilities are mostly remedial.

First a key to the metrics:

HSR = high speed runs
PSV-99 is basically the top speed of players (looking at the top 1% of each players runs for fastest speed)
Expl means explosive. I think the rest are self explanatory

The x axis is in standard deviations. A score of -1 means that that the average A league player is worse than 74% of players across all 6 leagues. A score of -2 means that the average A league player is worse than 97.5% of players across all 6 leagues. Since the A league is part of the sample, these scores are pretty alarming, some almost as low as you could go.

Summer football probably makes a big difference, though Japan is on this list too and we also do ok with running distance. Part of it could be lack of full time strength and conditioning coaches (or diffusing enough information on gym work to young players in the absence of such staff). In any case it makes for rich discussion about how to lift our physical standards without dropping our technical qualities. I note Japan and Denmark are physically well ahead of us (Denmark one of the physically most impressive leagues, despite being a technical, continental style of football)


The rest of the article is an interesting read

Australia's Youth Revolution

The beginning of a transformation from A-League Men to A-League Boys

scoutedftbl.com

 

[HonestSpursFan]

Probably worth its own thread

Scouts have often made comments that our technical standard is quite high, often good enough for a big 5 league but our physical abilities are mostly remedial.

First a key to the metrics:

HSR = high speed runs
PSV-99 is basically the top speed of players (looking at the top 1% of each players runs for fastest speed)
Expl means explosive. I think the rest are self explanatory

The x axis is in standard deviations. A score of -1 means that that the average A league player is worse than 74% of players across all 6 leagues. A score of -2 means that the average A league player is worse than 97.5% of players across all 6 leagues. Since the A league is part of the sample, these scores are pretty alarming, some almost as low as you could go.

Summer football probably makes a big difference, though Japan is on this list too and we also do ok with running distance. Part of it could be lack of full time strength and conditioning coaches (or diffusing enough information on gym work to young players in the absence of such staff). In any case it makes for rich discussion about how to lift our physical standards without dropping our technical qualities. I note Japan and Denmark are physically well ahead of us (Denmark one of the physically most impressive leagues, despite being a technical, continental style of football)
View attachment 5612

The rest of the article is an interesting read

Australia's Youth Revolution

The beginning of a transformation from A-League Men to A-League Boys

scoutedftbl.com

So essentially our boys can run far but are otherwise shit? To be fair all the best youngsters do go overseas pretty quickly. I think Newcastle Jets will struggle next season if they don’t invest for this reason: their squad is so young and talented, so therefore other clubs will be watching.!

 

[grazorblade]

So essentially our boys can run far but are otherwise shit? To be fair all the best youngsters do go overseas pretty quickly. I think Newcastle Jets will struggle next season if they don’t invest for this reason: their squad is so young and talented, so therefore other clubs will be watching.!

they can jog for ages, but cant sprint, change direction, accelerate, decellerate and are slow

if you do not have full time conditioning by 16 you can permanently drop in your athletic ceiling
so leaving by 20-21 is too late to become elite in our current environment

 

[LFC]

they can jog for ages, but cant sprint, change direction, accelerate, decellerate and are slow

if you do not have full time conditioning by 16 you can permanently drop in your athletic ceiling
so leaving by 20-21 is too late to become elite in our current environment

Last paragraph !
Some of us have mentioned this many at time gtfo and others counter no stay here far better to improve.
States and your comments says it all - all toooo late hanging round here and let’s face it the development league is Not competitive enough let alone no where the amount of games and conditioning needed to Make it !
Review the Jap model discussions - eats us for breakfast and around 20players in bundas !

 

[grazorblade]

Last paragraph !
Some of us have mentioned this many at time gtfo and others counter no stay here far better to improve.
States and your comments says it all - all toooo late hanging round here and let’s face it the development league is Not competitive enough let alone no where the amount of games and conditioned needed to Make it !
Review the map model discussions - eats us for breakfast and around 20players in bundas !

Since our technical development appears to have improved it is probably fine staying here until 13. But unless we can find a way to develop physically and technically (which is probably impossible without enough games and a full time strength and conditioning department) you probably start losing from your peak at 14 in our current environment

 

[Decentric]

they can jog for ages, but cant sprint, change direction, accelerate, decellerate and are slow

if you do not have full time conditioning by 16 you can permanently drop in your athletic ceiling
so leaving by 20-21 is too late to become elite in our current environment

I was a bit aware of this.

Initially, around 2008, the NC was devised around our players being good athletes, but technically and tactically poor - according to FIFA Technical Reports from underage World Cups.

Technique is/was considered of paramount importance - because it takes a long time to develop and there are no short cuts. Moreover, according to the then FFA Tech Dept, headed by Han Berger, no top teams /powerhouses in world football over a sustained period, have been technically deficient.

The data is interesting - but it is also mainly about top sprint speed ( HSR) and nimbleness after the first 2 criteria listed in the table.

This is an area where the sports scientists, exercise physios, physios know how much players can improve from the ages of 16 onwards. I have no idea. Yet I was an elite spinter for a short period of time in my early teens, but have not kept up with the sport at all.

Another physical aspect of football is strength. At almost any age in a footballer's career, strength gains can be made by Weight Training - which I know a fair bit about since I've been doing it for 50 years. Plus I have been under the tutulage of exercise physiologists, sports scientists an physios for the last 7 years. I have learned heaps from them.

Strength is not listed in the table. Why is strength is important? Which football performance aspects of football include strength?

Block tackling.

Shoulder barging.

Holding the ball up

Shielding the ball.

Jumping in heading duels.

Battling for/contests for the ball.

There must be others too, but if Aussies are lacking strength, which isn't listed in the data, 6-12 months can be significant to improve. I can even specify key exercises:

* Overhead Press with Dumbbells
* Bench Press
* Incline Bench Press with Dumbbells
* Deadlifts
* Back Squats
* Lateral Pull Downs

Football specific - Knee Raises.

Most footballers , even in the AL, have massive muscles just above their knees to protect them. They must do Knee Raises.

6-12 months of doing these weight training compound exercises, where all of them use large number of muscle groups simultaneously, one will pack on muscle and bulk, plus gain strength. Even I'm putting muscle bulk on slowly at age 69, which is very difficult, from doing these compound exercises 5 days a week.

These metrics are fascinating to read. I love stats.

However, Usain Bolt played in the AL, and would have been far better than anyone in these tests, except the first 2 criteria. Pertinently, Bolt stated he struggled to be fit enough to play football. He struggled with endurance.

Competitive sprinting UB stated it involves 2 races, at the closest 60 mins apart. Whilst in a football match, a player has to make a massive number of sprints in a 60 min period. Being able to back up is paramount, over an entire game. It is easy to improve this at any age - endurance training.

Running distance was about the only criterion, that Aus was good at - 2nd top in Grazor's table. Importantly, Aus was average being able to run in lots of high speed runs (HSRs). These are of paramount importance.

The last criterion Aus did quite well in too - changes of direction. This is of paramount importance. I once saw Cristiano Ronaldo compared to the Spanish sprint champion -which I'll shed light on later.


Aus have developed a few good technical footballers, who have struggeld to run out 90 mins, but have been effective players whilst on the pitch - Arzani, Tom Rogic and Nick Carle.

Conversely, a former Socceroo who was a great athlete and Aus underage sprint champion, Alan Smith, never amounted to anything at club level after playing a few Liverpool senior Cup games. The bright star, a football athlete, who failed to fill early predictions.

Did Adam Field state unequivocally in his Podcast that these physical attributes had to be attained by a certain age? In my gym YPTH, one of the Ex Physios is an elite sprinter, who has made the semi-finals for the National Aus Senior Athletic Champs in 100 and 200 metres. I'll ask her? One of the other Ex Physios has also coached a lot of sportspeople too in strength and conditioning. Hopefully, he can shed light on age.

Also, the scouts make some ridiculous predictions as to what players can attain at an early stage of their development. I surmise they are frequently wrong, but nobody goes back 5-10 years later, follows up and states they are wrong.

I was in a workshop with all the Victory coaching staff, including conditioning coach, Anthony Crea, also the former Socceroo conditioning coach. We fired lots of questions about early and late developers. Kevin Muscat stated it was complex, hence very difficult to predict a player's career before it happens. There are so many variables at play.

Thanks for putting up the tables, Grazor.

Good topic!

 

[grazorblade]

I was a bit aware of this.

Initially, around 2008, the NC was devised around our players being good athletes, but technically and tactically poor - according to FIFA Technical Reports from underage World Cups.

Technique is/was considered of paramount importance - because it takes a long time to develop and there are no short cuts. Moreover, according to the then FFA Tech Dept, headed by Han Berger, no top teams /powerhouses in world football over a sustained period, have been technically deficient.

The data is interesting - but it is also mainly about top sprint speed ( HSR) and nimbleness after the first 2 criteria listed in the table.

This is an area where the sports scientists, exercise physios, physios know how much players can improve from the ages of 16 onwards. I have no idea. Yet I was an elite spinter for a short period of time in my early teens, but have not kept up with the sport at all.

Another physical aspect of football is strength. At almost any age in a footballer's career, strength gains can be made by Weight Training - which I know a fair bit about since I've been doing it for 50 years. Plus I have been under the tutulage of exercise physiologists, sports scientists an physios for the last 7 years. I have learned heaps from them.

Strength is not listed in the table. Why is strength is important? Which football performance aspects of football include strength?

Block tackling.

Shoulder barging.

Holding the ball up

Shielding the ball.

Jumping in heading duels.

Battling for/contests for the ball.

There must be others too, but if Aussies are lacking strength, which isn't listed in the data, 6-12 months can be significant to improve. I can even specify key exercises:

* Overhead Press with Dumbbells
* Bench Press
* Incline Bench Press with Dumbbells
* Deadlifts
* Back Squats
* Lateral Pull Downs

Football specific - Knee Raises.

Most footballers , even in the AL, have massive muscles just above ther knees to protect them. They must do Knee Raises.

6-12 months of doing these weight training compound exercises, where all of them use large number of muscle groups simultaneously, one will pack on muscle and bulk, plus gain strength. Even I'm putting muscle bulk on slowly at age 69, which is very difficult, from doing these compound exercises 5 days a week.

These metrics are fascinating to read. I love stats.

However, Usain Bolt played in the AL, and would have been far better than anyone in these tests, except the first 2 criteria. Pertinently, Bolt stated he struggled to be fit enough to play football. He struggled with endurance.

Competitive sprinting UB stated it involves 2 races, at the closest 60 mins apart. Whilst in a football match, a player has to make a massive number of sprints in a 60 min period. Being able to back up is paramount, over an entire game. It is easy to improve this at any age - endurance training.

Running distance was about the only criterion, that Aus was good at - 2nd top in Grazor's table. Importantly, Aus was average being able to run in lots of high speed runs (HSRs). These are of paramount importance.

The last criterion Aus did quite well in too - changes of direction. This is of paramount importance. I once saw Cristiano Ronaldo compared to the Spanish sprint champion -which I'll shed light on later.


Aus have developed a few good technical footballers, who have struggeld to run out 90 mins, but have been effective players whilst on the pitch - Arzani, Tom Rogic and Nick Carle.

Conversely, a former Socceroo who was a great athlete and Aus underage sprint champion, Alan Smith, never amounted to anything at club level after playing a few Liverpool senior Cup games. The bright star, a football athlete, who failed to fill early predictions.

Did Adam Field state unequivocally in his Podcast that these physical attributes had to be attained by a certain age? In my gym YPTH, one of the Ex Physios is an elite sprinter, who has made the semi-finals for the National Aus Senior Athletic Champs in 100 and 200 metres. I'll ask her? One of the other Ex Physios has also coached a lot of sportspeople too in strength and conditioning. Hopefully, he can shed light on age.

Also, the scouts make some ridiculous predictions as to what players can attain at an early stage of their development. I surmise they are frequently wrong, but nobody goes back 5-10 years later, follows up and states they are wrong.

I was in a workshop with all the Victory coaching staff, including conditioning coach, Anthony Crea, also the former Socceroo conditioning coach. We fired lots of questions about early and late developers. Kevin Muscat stated it was complex, hence very difficult to predict a player's career before it happens. There are so many variables at play.

Thanks for putting up the tables, Grazor.

Good topic!

Yes I think we are behind in strength, changes in speed (acc/dec), changes in directions, top speed and how often and far you sprint in a match matters but ok in fitness. No stats for strength as yet, but Adam Field said that is probably why we are more injury prone. A lot of aussie players say they put on a lot of muscle when they go to europe. I think football requires different physical attributes to other sports. An elite sprinter like bolt would do great at top speed, but probably not be able to be a physical standout unless they trained for the demands of football as a teenager?

I can't remember if it was Adam or someone else who said you need full time strength and conditioning by the age of 16 to hit your peak, or you permanently shave off your peak. I think the players that hit the highest club level had a good technical base (adjusting to the standards of the time), but either went to europe before the age of 18 and had exposure to full time training, or went to the ais.

I think watching our old socceroos matches is interesting. Forget today's standards (since standards raise all the time) and compare our physical and technical qualities with midrange opposition over the eras (fifa rank 10-40).

The sort of players born 1970-74 - zelic, okon, skoko lazaridis etc - seem technically on the level for the standards of the time, but had real physical deficiencies. The players born 75-80 seems technically and physically a similar level to opponents around that range, the players born 81-85 seem physically advanced but technically below the level (jedi, holman, valeri, rukavytsya, ognenovski, garcia etc). I wonder if we go through cycles of emphasizing technique over physicality and vice versa? The players who have had the highest success in clubland for Australia have all been players who have physical and technical gifts. It seems to be a prerequisite for sustained success at the top to be a standout in both.

It was interesting listening to bruce Djite on suited and booted, he talked about how the training was all fitness focused at the ais. I wonder if that culture was different 10 years before then?

 

[grazorblade]

btw on scouts predicting long term prospects, that is how they make their money

if you get good at predicting who will go well at a club and also be sold for a club, you become worth getting paid.

That of course doesn't mean they have gotten good at it, I guess we will find out how well they do

but they have a remarkable amount of tools these days

You can now pay for a wyscout account that can let you see, for example, every aerial dual a player has had in a season to compliment their raw data

you can also pay for access for physical data and how it compares to averages in positions in the big 5

Emerging Talent: Finding Value in Europe's Development Leagues

We combine Statsbomb event data with Hudl physical metrics to identify four high-potential players ready to make the jump to Europe's top leagues.

www.hudl.com

whether this all ends up worth the money I guess we see

 

[HappyGuus]

I wonder if other sports scooping up the athletically gifted has an impact. AFL is all about elite athletics, beep tests, agility, jumps etc. and little about actually kicking a footy. Whereas a technically gifted player is valued higher in soccer. We probably don't lose players to rugby though.

 

[grazorblade]

I wonder if other sports scooping up the athletically gifted has an impact. AFL is all about elite athletics, beeps tests, agility, jumps etc. and little about actually kicking a footy. Whereas a technically gifted player is valued higher in soccer. We probably don't lose players to rugby though.

Quite possibly,

But we had athletically gifted players in the past, and not just migrants

I think a few things

1) season length (u have to make tradeoffs if u arent teaching players for long)
2) lack of full time strength and conditioning coaches to help athletic development
3) undervaluing athletic properties in marking players with high potential.

 

[grazorblade]

Speaking of which

 

[LFC]

Yer that’s doing us well at 0.006 value of the football transfer pie

 

[Decentric]

I wonder if other sports scooping up the athletically gifted has an impact. AFL is all about elite athletics, beep tests, agility, jumps etc. and little about actually kicking a footy. Whereas a technically gifted player is valued higher in soccer. We probably don't lose players to rugby though.

Good point, HG.

I thought about this as I was going to bed. This forum stops me from going to bed before 12 midnight! Ha ha!

AFL - the sport is all about physical attributes - whilst ball skill ( relative to football) is secondary. Otherwise players wouldn't be able to switch from other sports to play AFL - like they do.

Against the footballers of 6 nations, how would Aussie AFL players perform?

 

[grazorblade]

Good point, HG.

I thought about this as I was going to bed. This forum stops me from going to bed before 12 midnight! Ha ha!

AFL - the sport is all about physical attributes - whilst ball skill ( relative to football) is secondary. Otherwise players wouldn't be able to switch from other sports to play AFL - like they do.

Against the footballers of 6 nations, how would Aussie AFL players perform?

Probably has some effects, but how much overlap is there between the athletic gifts of other codes and football?

Not sure but asking. In league the golden ticket is finding a player who can "change direction without losing speed". Ive never heard of someone looking for that in a footballer?

 

[Decentric]

Quite possibly,

But we had athletically gifted players in the past, and not just migrants

I think a few things

1) season length (u have to make tradeoffs if u arent teaching players for long)
2) lack of full time strength and conditioning coaches to help athletic development
3) undervaluing athletic properties in marking players with high potential.

This would be a good topic for a Podcast about Aussie footballers.

How much strength and conditioning do Aus footballers do in the youth development years compared to Europe?

I'll bet they don't do as much in South America as Europe?

 

[Decentric]

Probably has some effects, but how much overlap is there between the athletic gifts of other codes and football?

Not sure but asking. In league the golden ticket is finding a player who can "change direction without losing speed". Ive never heard of someone looking for that in a footballer?

They might do it in league too, but AFL players have to jump to specific heights and meet all sorts of physical performance criteria before they are given pro contracts.

 

[grazorblade]

This would be a good topic for a Podcast about Aussie footballers.

How much strength and conditioning do Aus footballers do in the youth development years compared to Europe?

I'll bet they don't do as much in South America as Europe?

Yeah i guess id need to know who would be a good guest for the topic

I guess those above tbe knee muscles u mentioned, those are what you would need for direction changes and rapid decellerations. I never thought to look for decellerations as a physical quality. Wonder what it is for? Rapidly getting into defensive position?

 

[Decentric]

It was interesting listening to bruce Djite on suited and booted, he talked about how the training was all fitness focused at the ais. I wonder if that culture was different 10 years before then?

This is interesting?

BD is an excellent source. I'd like access to this. Suited and Booted is what? I suppose it will be on a search ap?

 

[Decentric]

Yeah i guess id need to know who would be a good guest for the topic

Yeah i guess id need to know who would be a good guest for the topic

An AL strength and conditioning coach.

Or a recent former one.

 

[grazorblade]

This is interesting?

BD is an excellent source. I'd like access to this. Suited and Booted is what? I suppose it will be on a search ap?