"Can you smell the fear?", do the other football codes in Australia (AFL,NRL), genuinely fear football?

[melbcityguy]

AFL is going through a interesting situation with their wildcard idea getting a lot of hate

 

[WhatAmIWatching]

AFL is going through a interesting situation with their wildcard idea getting a lot of hate

I hope I am gone by the time the AFL get to "everybody gets a medal" stage.

 

[onedaywinners...]

They’ve been changing the rules incessantly for 20 years!!

Can smell their desperation and fear from here!

 

[LFC]

the fear more than anything is changing with the times more than worrying about real football imo.
Their surge of strength setting up its backbone was the early days and the migration influx - talking Melb.
Times are a changing - they need to come up with ways keeping the natives interested.
Natives never like change human trait but they have to roll the dice being such a insular game.
Good luck to them, they are on a uphill battle the years ahead for surely their strength has to weaken little by little.

 

[BA81]

They’ve been changing the rules incessantly for 20 years!!

Above all, needlessly.

 

[BA81]

the fear more than anything is changing with the times more than worrying about real football imo.
Their surge of strength setting up its backbone was the early days and the migration influx - talking Melb.
Times are a changing - they need to come up with ways keeping the natives interested.
Natives never like change human trait but they have to roll the dice being such a insular game.
Good luck to them, they are on a uphill battle the years ahead for surely their strength has to weaken little by little.

Their best bet at ‘getting w/the times’ is finally dropping their grievances(such as they are) against us️ and working together - but at this rate we’ll all have shuffled off this mortal coil before then, unless they discover the cure for ageing within the next 15 years or so..

 

[BA81]

The point of focusing on making football here the best it can be is to pull the whole country in. Pandering to anyone isn't needed, but neither is staying small. It should be mainstream and that should be the goal, without it being the means.

If it absolutely must be persisted with, then at least go about it w/self-respecting nuance; desperation-reeking crap like the “You’ve Gotta Have a Team” ad-campaign w/that Yoshi twerp impresses no-one.

 

[Quicky]

They’ve been changing the rules incessantly for 20 years!!

Can smell their desperation and fear from here!

It's how the AFL operates. It's flexible which is one reason it dominates.

The intent in this change is to make more games relevant towards the end of the season. Sound familiar? It's what football has with pro-rel where all games have meaning. Except we don't have pro-rel in Australia.

This isn't a good thing for football. AFL has jumped football again. It's our own fault. We should have pro-rel.

 

[Cunningstunt]

If it absolutely must be persisted with, then at least go about it w/self-respecting nuance; desperation-reeking crap like the “You’ve Gotta Have a Team” ad-campaign w/that Yoshi twerp impresses no-one.

Marketing is a weird thing. Why some things work and other don't. You could argue that promotion appealing to people like us isn't really needed as we are already invested. So what is the point of doubling down to attract people who are already involved.

I remember MVC selling out docklands with 40k two matches in a row (SFC and MCY). Crowds overall being much stronger in Brisbane, WSW, Wellington. This was under CEOs who were criticised a lot for seeking the mainstream appeal. But this would have us in a much better position compared to today.

There are people who want football to remain a victim in the sheilas, wogs and poofters mode (not saying this is yourself), boohooing about all the injustices it/they suffer. They prefer it to be alternative or niche. They might not state it but their actions do. This isn't how we win a world cup, the sport needs to be big and mainstream.

 

[BA81]

Marketing is a weird thing. Why some things work and other don't. You could argue that promotion appealing to people like us isn't really needed as we are already invested. So what is the point of doubling down to attract people who are already involved.

I remember MVC selling out docklands with 40k two matches in a row (SFC and MCY). Crowds overall being much stronger in Brisbane, WSW, Wellington. This was under CEOs who were criticised a lot for seeking the mainstream appeal. But this would have us in a much better position compared to today.

There are people who want football to remain a victim in the sheilas, wogs and poofters mode (not saying this is yourself), boohooing about all the injustices it/they suffer. They prefer it to be alternative or niche. They might not state it but their actions do. This isn't how we win a world cup, the sport needs to be big and mainstream.

The will of the Australian people at large(not to mention the Gov’t) simply isn’t geared towards us winning a FIFA World Cup someday, let alone anytime soon - all the logistics are currently against us, as they have always been.

Stating so isn’t wallowing in hipsterish victimhood - it’s just the truth

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Marketing is a weird thing. Why some things work and other don't. You could argue that promotion appealing to people like us isn't really needed as we are already invested. So what is the point of doubling down to attract people who are already involved.

I remember MVC selling out docklands with 40k two matches in a row (SFC and MCY). Crowds overall being much stronger in Brisbane, WSW, Wellington. This was under CEOs who were criticised a lot for seeking the mainstream appeal. But this would have us in a much better position compared to today.

There are people who want football to remain a victim in the sheilas, wogs and poofters mode (not saying this is yourself), boohooing about all the injustices it/they suffer. They prefer it to be alternative or niche. They might not state it but their actions do. This isn't how we win a world cup, the sport needs to be big and mainstream.

Marketing 101 usually direct you to NOT shit on your existing market base when trying to win a new one though...

 

[Cunningstunt]

The will of the Australian people at large(not to mention the Gov’t) simply isn’t geared towards us winning a FIFA World Cup someday, let alone anytime soon - all the logistics are currently against us, as they have always been.

Stating so isn’t wallowing in hipsterish victimhood - it’s just the truth

Marketing 101 usually direct you to NOT shit on your existing market base when trying to win a new one though...

Stating it isn't. Wanting it to remain the case is. Need to include the bogans who say their team scored 3 points to 1 because they have a good kicker. The Socceroos, Matildas and various clubs have managed to do this in different ways at different points.

How you do it is the million dollar question. We can all point to the failures over the years. I don't know that things like Yoshi really shit on us, rather are more cringe worthy. But they might have a place. In 2012 the WSW would play Gangnam Style over the PA prior to matches. The RBB fucking hated it, but the club had feedback from families that the kids loved it as part of the experience. If that was the tipping point for someone not attending, they probably weren't that committed in the first place.

 

[BA81]

Stating it isn't. Wanting it to remain the case is. Need to include the bogans who say their team scored 3 points to 1 because they have a good kicker. The Socceroos, Matildas and various clubs have managed to do this in different ways at different points.

How you do it is the million dollar question. We can all point to the failures over the years. I don't know that things like Yoshi really shit on us, rather are more cringe worthy. But they might have a place. In 2012 the WSW would play Gangnam Style over the PA prior to matches. The RBB fucking hated it, but the club had feedback from families that the kids loved it as part of the experience. If that was the tipping point for someone not attending, they probably weren't that committed in the first place.

How would you personally do it, just out of curiosity? I’ve already made it clear that I wouldn’t try because I know in my heart of hearts it’d be for nothing in the end..but since you’re obv more optimistic than I, I’m curious to hear your idea/s.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Stating it isn't. Wanting it to remain the case is. Need to include the bogans who say their team scored 3 points to 1 because they have a good kicker. The Socceroos, Matildas and various clubs have managed to do this in different ways at different points.

How you do it is the million dollar question. We can all point to the failures over the years. I don't know that things like Yoshi really shit on us, rather are more cringe worthy. But they might have a place. In 2012 the WSW would play Gangnam Style over the PA prior to matches. The RBB fucking hated it, but the club had feedback from families that the kids loved it as part of the experience. If that was the tipping point for someone not attending, they probably weren't that committed in the first place.

The tipping point for me (and many other) not attending the Aleague was being told my club wasn't Australian and to fuck off out of their ethnically untainted competition, We wouldnt have cared if they played Lady Gaga at the stadium and all danced the hokey pokey... ...

 

[LFC]

Marketing 101 usually direct you to NOT shit on your existing market base when trying to win a new one though...

BANG ON !
Eg is my own industry - rule #101 is the potential growth is right in front of you your exisiting customer base, 80/20 rule !
Sure reach out for new incremental business but your current devoted customer has the greatest potential to grow more and more.

 

[Cunningstunt]

The tipping point for me (and many other) not attending the Aleague was being told my club wasn't Australian and to fuck off out of their ethnically untainted competition, We wouldnt have cared if they played Lady Gaga at the stadium and all danced the hokey pokey... ...

I was using the examples from the Aleague as a proxy but engagement with club football generally is more what I am talking about. Which you already do. Now that I am a fully fledged member of the pro/rel club, in a world where we got this over the line, access to the national competition wouldn't be restricted.

I was just trying to find an article from 15 years ago about Andrew Dettre looking at the back and forth he went through about the ethnic club question through the 60s to the 80s, but I can't remember where it is from. He had gone back and forth on the issue multiple times in terms of what is best. But I think pro/rel might make the question redundant.

If the competition grew massively, the traditional clubs could make their own decisions about what is important to them. Do they maintain their roots and potentially limit their growth, thereby likely getting relegated or do they attempt to reach a broader audience? The league has answered this question for everyone since it commenced. But opening it up seems to shift the question away from the league and onto the clubs. I suspect the former, which is fine, but interested in your thoughts.

This is pretty pie in the sky stuff at this point.

 

[Cunningstunt]

How would you personally do it, just out of curiosity? I’ve already made it clear that I wouldn’t try because I know in my heart of hearts it’d be for nothing in the end..but since you’re obv more optimistic than I, I’m curious to hear your idea/s.

I don't know that I am optimistic about it being achievable. The cultural forces and organisations who don't want it to happen are pretty strong, never mind the incompetence on our end.

The best I have is I think it needs to be club driven, in terms of competition off the field. This is why I went from pro/rel when the pieces are in place, to basically thinking we just do it and allow natural competition to do it's thing. I think the clubs / owners have been comfortable off the field. I don't think the league as a whole should be doing the heavy lifting.

It can't restrictive on who can and cannot engage and in what way. This is true from an ethnicity POV with the old traditional clubs, and from a gatekeeper POV in terms of who we are happy jumping on board from other codes. Specific details on how this is done I don't know enough to suggest. But if we limit it before we even start, it is a guaranteed loss.

 

[LFC]

I was using the examples from the Aleague as a proxy but engagement with club football generally is more what I am talking about. Which you already do. Now that I am a fully fledged member of the pro/rel club, in a world where we got this over the line, access to the national competition wouldn't be restricted.

I was just trying to find an article from 15 years ago about Andrew Dettre looking at the back and forth he went through about the ethnic club question through the 60s to the 80s, but I can't remember where it is from. He had gone back and forth on the issue multiple times in terms of what is best. But I think pro/rel might make the question redundant.

If the competition grew massively, the traditional clubs could make their own decisions about what is important to them. Do they maintain their roots and potentially limit their growth, thereby likely getting relegated or do they attempt to reach a broader audience? The league has answered this question for everyone since it commenced. But opening it up seems to shift the question away from the league and onto the clubs. I suspect the former, which is fine, but interested in your thoughts.

This is pretty pie in the sky stuff at this point.

this one ? back in 2013 this interview...I think its riverting reading for many newbies to get understanding instead of wiki/google searchs and what the modern day FFA/FA sprouted obviously pushing their barrow to the general pop and bogan in the view of fish where the fish are........

The forgotten story of ... Andrew Dettre and Soccer World

Joe Gorman: A giant of football journalism, Andrew Dettre was a visionary of the sport's future in Australia

www.theguardian.com

“They came from good clubs in Hungary, became refugees in Germany, they were accepted as migrants to Australia, and when they got here they wanted to play football. But they didn’t want them. I remember lots of little scandals at Bankstown, Granville, Macarthur Park and so on. They said ‘come back some other time.’ They didn’t want them in case they disrupted the Anglo-Saxon unity. It was a deep prejudice.”

I ask Andrew whether he feels that the game has finally made it. Many of his concepts and ideas, while unappreciated, have since come to fruition. “It doesn’t really matter,” he responds, drawing out the last two words slowly. “Deep down in my heart, I always feel, it doesn’t matter whether we are number one. We should love the game of soccer because we feel that it’s a superior sport. But we should try to live within our means.”

The above in bold is spot on and as many have said, focus on US and our game, stop worrying about other codes, more so about bloody crowds that became a principle about $.
First build it, then they/we will come - extended fam start coming, friends of friends, ethnic aussie root Club are the foundations.
P/R would run its course Cunningstunt, the mention of what would some ethnic clubs do/decide/yes spot on.
Some would get right behind playing in the top flight some would opt happily staying in lower Divs.
This is a football eco system - us and many in the football system will follow, those on the outside come and go.

Thirty five years on, Andrew maintains his position, explaining that many clubs from around the world have maintained their foreign symbolism from another era, whether it be Corinthians in Brazil or Milan in Italy.

“The names were the glue. Hakoah was a Jewish club, and they said ‘why hide it?’ The Jews suffered enough during World War Two, we don’t have to be ashamed. It was the same at St George Budapest, which was called Budapest at the time. They were all Hungarians, all 11, because there were so many of them!

 

[BA81]

I don't know that I am optimistic about it being achievable. The cultural forces and organisations who don't want it to happen are pretty strong, never mind the incompetence on our end.

The best I have is I think it needs to be club driven, in terms of competition off the field. This is why I went from pro/rel when the pieces are in place, to basically thinking we just do it and allow natural competition to do it's thing. I think the clubs / owners have been comfortable off the field. I don't think the league as a whole should be doing the heavy lifting.

It can't restrictive on who can and cannot engage and in what way. This is true from an ethnicity POV with the old traditional clubs, and from a gatekeeper POV in terms of who we are happy jumping on board from other codes. Specific details on how this is done I don't know enough to suggest. But if we limit it before we even start, it is a guaranteed loss.

Be aware that introducing pro/rel to the AL and the ensuing return to top-flight ️ of ‘monoethnic’ clubs is gonna instantly turn off some(if not a sizeable-enough number) of the ‘mainstream’ demographic in question - though the obv. upside is it’ll automatically weed out the racist/xenophobe bogans, plus those who’re only willing to ‘give the sokkah a go’ if it aesthetically resembles AFL/NRL etc. as much as possible.

(Which is a win/win for me personally, LOL)

Banter aside though, if I absolutely HAVE to be put on the spot re. a suggestion on how to appeal to the mainstream, well..I would state that a ️ version of The Footy Show, if done just right, would at the very least help cement the cultural-permanence of our game in the sporting-landscape even w/o converting a significant amount of people to it..

I’m reminded of an interview years ago w/Trevor Marmalade from the AFL Footy Show where he stated the show always got surprisingly plenty of fan-mail/feedback from viewers who openly admitted disinterest in Aussie Rules as a sport..but were rabid fans of the show nonetheless bc of its humour and how engaging it was!

 

[Cunningstunt]

this one ? back in 2013 this interview...I think its riverting reading for many newbies to get understanding instead of wiki/google searchs and what the modern day FFA/FA sprouted obviously pushing their barrow to the general pop and bogan in the view of fish where the fish are........

The forgotten story of ... Andrew Dettre and Soccer World

Joe Gorman: A giant of football journalism, Andrew Dettre was a visionary of the sport's future in Australia

www.theguardian.com

“They came from good clubs in Hungary, became refugees in Germany, they were accepted as migrants to Australia, and when they got here they wanted to play football. But they didn’t want them. I remember lots of little scandals at Bankstown, Granville, Macarthur Park and so on. They said ‘come back some other time.’ They didn’t want them in case they disrupted the Anglo-Saxon unity. It was a deep prejudice.”

I ask Andrew whether he feels that the game has finally made it. Many of his concepts and ideas, while unappreciated, have since come to fruition. “It doesn’t really matter,” he responds, drawing out the last two words slowly. “Deep down in my heart, I always feel, it doesn’t matter whether we are number one. We should love the game of soccer because we feel that it’s a superior sport. But we should try to live within our means.”

The above in bold is spot on and as many have said, focus on US and our game, stop worrying about other codes, more so about bloody crowds that became a principle about $.
First build it, then they/we will come - extended fam start coming, friends of friends, ethnic aussie root Club are the foundations.

Thirty five years on, Andrew maintains his position, explaining that many clubs from around the world have maintained their foreign symbolism from another era, whether it be Corinthians in Brazil or Milan in Italy.

“The names were the glue. Hakoah was a Jewish club, and they said ‘why hide it?’ The Jews suffered enough during World War Two, we don’t have to be ashamed. It was the same at St George Budapest, which was called Budapest at the time. They were all Hungarians, all 11, because there were so many of them!

Wow great work! That is the one. I had thought it was on the LeopoldMethod site which no longer exists. Gorman wrote for them as well. I was just going through the quarterley they printed because I thought it was an article in there.

For anyone interested - off topic:
https://archive.org/details/leopold-method-quarterly-edition/Leopold Method Quarterly Edition - Issue 1/page/n7/mode/2up
There is some good articles in there from about 15 years ago. Long reads.



He wrote this in 1978 and is still broadly true today. But I feel pro/rel changes the question a bit. Another article I can't remember the details of talked about Hakoah and how before he folded the club (against the wishes of other members mind you), Lowy told a journalist how the members were literally all dying out as the next generation didn't need the club anymore and did not attend.