P n R This could work

[Midfielder]

Most Football folk support the idea of P n R.

The issues in Australia there are many things that get in the way ....

I have always maintained we need to build Football up to a certain size...then introduce...

A journalist from Football360 has IMO identified how we can introduce P n R from next season and IMO it's so well through out and can work.

The link is attached at the end but in simple teams it's a promotion league... copies from the Japanese model...

Very long article but well worth the read and only after reading discuss as it's a different system to who comes first..

Enjoy and as I said read...

The biggest lesson Aussie football can learn from Japan's 30-year evolution

How did Japan build its football pyramid? Dan Orlowitz explains the J.League’s approach to promotion, relegation, expansion and what Australia can learn.

football360.com.au

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Most Football folk support the idea of P n R.

The issues in Australia there are many things that get in the way ....

I have always maintained we need to build Football up to a certain size...then introduce...

A journalist from Football360 has IMO identified how we can introduce P n R from next season and IMO it's so well through out and can work.

The link is attached at the end but in simple teams it's a promotion league... copies from the Japanese model...

Very long article but well worth the read and only after reading discuss as it's a different system to who comes first..

Enjoy and as I said read...

The biggest lesson Aussie football can learn from Japan's 30-year evolution

How did Japan build its football pyramid? Dan Orlowitz explains the J.League’s approach to promotion, relegation, expansion and what Australia can learn.

football360.com.au

Mate, he has been pushing this "idea" for years now but where I (and a few others) fundamentally disagree is on the need for a mechanism for relegation NOT just promotion. His way of tackling growth and promotion is pretty good, no issues there.. if a club doesn't have the wherewithal to compete in a higher league then they dont get promoted, simple. tick.

Where Matt tackles football leagues from the perspective of a business concern whose only reason for existence is to create commercial outcomes most in clubland see ambition as a double edged sword where survival of fittest brings about growth for ALL.

Matt writes:

Because nobody benefits if a brilliant football season sends a club into an operating environment that destroys it two years later.

to which I counter

EVERY other club beneath the relegated club benefits. As do the clubs around it that have spent the past season fighting against them for relegation. They get to see what it takes to stay in the top flight, they get the chance to try their own methodology or strategy, they get the chance to innovate, they have access to a higher quality of player, they get a chance to sell players to a new market that now has eyes on them. the pros FAR outweigh the cons. If Western United or QLD Fury could have been relegated instead of wound up dont you think we would be in a better place by now?

 

[Sutherlandbear]

Until EVERY club is under the same association, then a fair pyramid cannot work in this country.

At the moment it is like football in 8 different countries, with the various state/ territory associations all looking out for themselves.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Until EVERY club is under the same association, then a fair pyramid cannot work in this country.

At the moment it is like football in 8 different countries, with the various state/ territory associations all looking out for themselves.

Yeah I agree, that is a fundamental first step. Whether that means disbanding state FA's or restricting their power to operate ONLY as regional administrative offices of the FA purely fro the purpose of running local programs is up to the boffins to sort out but EVERY FA should have the same basic rules of competition and licensing thats a minimum.

 

[Glenardo]

Not even all of nsw is under 1 federation ffs. Ridiculous. I think that’s a big part of the concept of a nsd, atleasy the top 2 tiers of the sport should be national/under the fa, not just the top tier and then state leagues. There needs to be something in between…

In the interim btw I actually quite liked that suggestion of aus championship following the new champions league model and having 1 league table instead of groups as a step towards h/a

 

[Midfielder]

Mon

What I like about his approach and I know he has been bagging on about for a while but arguably this is the first time its so clearly explained..

Moreover I very humbly suggest this system has worked, but again humbly I suggest its achievable.... its not perfect in say the European sense but even in Europe its not the same in all leagues...

Japan is often held out as the system to follow ...

Its a mixed and old question... but do you let perfect get in the way of good...

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Its a mixed and old question... but do you let perfect get in the way of good...

Oh I agree, it has to start somewhere, what I find a little disconcerting though is the silence around achieving "perfect" because its seems (at least to me) that Matt wants to build the top of the shiny pyramid using the sweat of the pleb clubs once excluded and once an ideal financial model is achieved and the "owners" start changing the ink in their pens from red to black, shut the drawbridge to any of the other clubs on the wrong side of that drawbridge. ...

 

[Midfielder]

I don't get that feel....ie he is trying to exclude certain clubs...

Its a given right or wrong we have twelve... You create a system you want but with the key the sustainability of the application plus other things you care to dream up like stadium, fan base etc...

Once going as he suggested it can change..

The key is getting it started and assuming the standards set up are met ie no one is excluded then anyone can apply...

Agreeing on the standards could be an issue however As long as they apply to all IMO not perfect but working in Japan

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

I don't get that feel....ie he is trying to exclude certain clubs...

Its a given right or wrong we have twelve... You create a system you want but with the key the sustainability of the application plus other things you care to dream up like stadium, fan base etc...

Once going as he suggested it can change..

The key is getting it started and assuming the standards set up are met ie no one is excluded then anyone can apply...

Agreeing on the standards could be an issue however As long as they apply to all IMO not perfect but working in Japan

Sorry mate, yeah I agree I dont think Matt is trying to exclude anyone from rising to the top leagues either... Nor am I suggesting he has bad intentions. The guy is putting his money and effort where his mouth is and trying to raise the ambitions of his local club... a HUGE bravo from me.

Its the lack of accountability for poor performance that has me worried. Or at least the lack of acknowledging that relegation is JUST as important as promotion to create an ecosystem where clubs/players/administrators and even fans find their level on merit both on and off the pitch.

 

[Encomium]

Until EVERY club is under the same association, then a fair pyramid cannot work in this country.

At the moment it is like football in 8 different countries, with the various state/ territory associations all looking out for themselves.

This is the biggest stumbling block.
Japan had a plan that was broadly accepted and had everyone in the game going in that direction.

 

[someguyjc]

Yeah I agree, that is a fundamental first step. Whether that means disbanding state FA's or restricting their power to operate ONLY as regional administrative offices of the FA purely fro the purpose of running local programs is up to the boffins to sort out but EVERY FA should have the same basic rules of competition and licensing thats a minimum.

It really should be one FA with states being departments within the FA. There really is no need for each state to have it's own entity with it's own board. I can only imagine how completely inefficient that is. There are so many roles and tasks that could be covered by a central pool of human resources rather than each fed having it's own.

 

[Glenardo]

It really should be one FA with states being departments within the FA. There really is no need for each state to have it's own entity with it's own board. I can only imagine how completely inefficient that is. There are so many roles and tasks that could be covered by a central pool of human resources rather than each fed having it's own.

Only problem being that like with the states and the nation itself, it’s often the state feds which pre date the national one

 

[BA81]

It really should be one FA with states being departments within the FA. There really is no need for each state to have it's own entity with it's own board. I can only imagine how completely inefficient that is. There are so many roles and tasks that could be covered by a central pool of human resources rather than each fed having it's own.

I don’t deny that there are some issues/aspects where the State Feds require a certain degree of autonomy, but apart from that they absolutely need to operate as branches of the FFA instead of entities separate from it.

 

[Midfielder]

Sorry mate, yeah I agree I dont think Matt is trying to exclude anyone from rising to the top leagues either... Nor am I suggesting he has bad intentions. The guy is putting his money and effort where his mouth is and trying to raise the ambitions of his local club... a HUGE bravo from me.

Its the lack of accountability for poor performance that has me worried. Or at least the lack of acknowledging that relegation is JUST as important as promotion to create an ecosystem where clubs/players/administrators and even fans find their level on merit both on and off the pitch.

My reading of his model is you promote to a certain size then from the size create divisions...only when you have enough teams do you teams and divisions do you introduce regulation

 

[someguyjc]

Only problem being that like with the states and the nation itself, it’s often the state feds which pre date the national one

Yeah I don't actually see it ever happening, just my opinion that it should happen. I actually think I have better chances of seeing P&R with the AL/Championship/NPL than we do of the state feds being dissolved.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

My reading of his model is you promote to a certain size then from the size create divisions...only when you have enough teams do you teams and divisions do you introduce regulation

Sure mate, and that may very well work our for a club like Berwick. They get a cashed up sponsor, rise through the ranks, apply for and get a license to join the Aleague or the B league or whatever division then what? They just squat on that license and do nothing for the next 5-10-20 years until some arbitrary desired outcome occurs? Weve had WU fail, how many more clubs do we sacrifice just t protect someones investment?.

 

[NicCarBel]

Each Member Fed/NPL (well.. except for ACT, and to an extent TAS) have pro/rel set up already. All it would really take is a national second division, directly linked to A-League, and then re-introducing the old NPL Finals set-up where the winner is promoted to the NSD, and then last place of the NSD is relegated to their state/MF NPL.

Would obviously need some tweaking of regulations where there's caveats of things like "if a club is relegated from NSD without a club being promoted to NSD from this member fed, one extra club will be relegated", etc etc

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Each Member Fed/NPL (well.. except for ACT, and to an extent TAS) have pro/rel set up already. All it would really take is a national second division, directly linked to A-League, and then re-introducing the old NPL Finals set-up where the winner is promoted to the NSD, and then last place of the NSD is relegated to their state/MF NPL.

Would obviously need some tweaking of regulations where there's caveats of things like "if a club is relegated from NSD without a club being promoted to NSD from this member fed, one extra club will be relegated", etc etc

Exactly right... These pro/rel "solutions" coming from Aleague affiliated folk start the conversation from the top down with a built in protection for the intial franchises first and foremost...

 

[HappyGuus]

Sure mate, and that may very well work our for a club like Berwick. They get a cashed up sponsor, rise through the ranks, apply for and get a license to join the Aleague or the B league or whatever division then what? They just squat on that license and do nothing for the next 5-10-20 years until some arbitrary desired outcome occurs? Weve had WU fail, how many more clubs do we sacrifice just t protect someones investment?.

Sounds just like NSW League Two Can't be relegated from it as far as I know.

I think the point is to grow the divisions then introduce relegation. So in this case Berwick would've passed the requirements on facilities and staff and accounts and merit etc. to be accepted to the next highest tier. When that tier is full, we either split divisions again to grow further or introduce relegation at that point. It took Japan 30+ years to get there.

I'm not sure this country has the resources for a national third tier. So I'd be looking at having larger top two tiers, 16-18 teams. Then have a post NPL season tournament for pro/rel with the NST. Only clubs that pass the NST criteria participate for promotion.

 

[NicCarBel]

Sounds just like NSW League Two Can't be relegated from it as far as I know.

This is something I would change too in my above model - again, using something existing/recent like the NPL Finals: Champion of Champions. Caveat being, allowing FNSW/whoever setting some sort of minimum requirements, so that you only compete in Champion of Champions if you meet said promotion requirements. Then, every club in NSW needs to be allocated an association, so that if they see themselves relegated from League Two, they go back to their associations Premier League