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Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

NicCarBel said:
oh gosh expanding playoff spots - hate it.

Italy is horrible for it in the lower divisions. Serie C (3 conferences of 20) has the champions all directly promoted, with 4 relegated from Serie B. So only 1 extra goes up from Serie C. How many teams take part in the playoffs do you ask? 28. 2nd-10th of each conference, and the winner of the "Serie C Coppa Italia" should they finish outside the top 10 (but not in a relegation spot), which goes to 11th of the conference they compete in, should they already be in the top 10.
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Sounds like they do P&R like they do political parties... :LOL:
 
0x3mp1r3 said:
Honestly, love the discussions here. I posted my version for P/R and fill pyramid last year in this forum and I might be bias, but I honestly believe it’s the best setup or atleast better than what football 360 is suggesting.

The only way I see Australian football progressing long term is by reconnecting all levels of the game in a complete pyramid. This will allow investment in all levels of the game by ambitious clubs and Australian businessmen to strive for promotion to the a-league. The following is what I would love to see implemented over the next 5-10 years. Long story short, we need more games, we need more investment, and I’m not talking about $30m franchises, I’m talking about every club investing in themselves to raise their own standards on and off the field to become professional and move up the pyramid.

• A-League
• Championship
• NPL Champions League (end of each NPL Season)
• National Premier Leagues


**A-League (14-16 teams)**

• Adelaide United

• Brisbane Roar

• Central Coast

• Macarthur FC

• Melbourne City

• Melbourne Victory

• Newcastle Jets

• Perth Glory

• Sydney FC

• Wellington Phoenix

• Western Sydney

• Western United

• Auckland FC

• *Expansion Team 14*

• *Expansion Team 15*

• *Expansion Team 16*



**16 Team League**

• Games: 30 matches H/A season

• Finals: Top 6

• Relegation: 1.5 slots (1 auto / 1 Playoff)



Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: None

• Relegation Playoff: 16th team 2-Leg Playoff with winner of Second Division Promotion Playoff.


**or if we cap at 14 Team League**

• Games: 26 matches H/A season

• Finals: Top 6

• Relegation: 1 Slot (Automatic)


Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: 14th Team Relegated

• Relegation Playoff: None



**Championship (16 Teams)**

• Marconi Stallions

• Preston Lions

• Wollongong Wolves

• APIA Leichhardt / Sydney Olympic

• Sydney United

• Avondale FC

• South Melbourne

• NPL VIC Premiers

• NPL NSW Premiers

• NPL NNSW Premiers

• NPL NZ Premiers

• NPL QLD Premiers

• NPL ACT Premiers

• NPL SA Premiers

• NPL TAS Premiers

• NPL WA Premiers


• Games: 30 Matches H/A Season


Let’s say NSD is locked in at 16 teams. The Variable is the A-League above at 14-16 teams. So here are the following promotion variables.





**14 Team A-League**

• Promotion: 0 Auto, 1 Playoff

• Relegation: 0 Auto, 2 Playoff


Promotion Rules:

• Promotion Automatic: None

• Promotion Playoff: Top 4 Qualify

(Round 1: 1st v 4th & 2nd v 3rd (2-Leg))

(Final Playoff: Winner 1v4 vs Winner 2v3 (2-Leg))

(Winner of Round 2 Promoted to A-League)


Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: None

• Relegation Playoff: 15th team & 16th team in 2-Leg Playoff with winners of NPL Finals.


**16 Team A-League**

• Promotion: 1 Auto, 1 Playoff

• Relegation: 0 Auto, 2 Playoff


Promotion Rules:

• Promotion Automatic: League Winner

• Promotion Playoff: 2nd - 5th Qualify

(Round 1: 2nd v 5th & 3rd v 4th (2-Leg))

(Round 2: Winner 2v5 vs Winner 3v4 (2-Leg))

(Playoff 1: Round 2 Playoff winner vs 15th A-League (2-Leg))

(Winner of Playoff Promoted to A-League)


Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: None

• Relegation Playoff: 15th team & 16th team in 2-Leg Playoff with winners of NPL Finals.

_
_


**National Premier Leagues**

10 state conference leagues. With a 16 team NPL Champions League Final series to determine Promotion. Teams who qualify for NPL Champions league will earn co-efficient points to determine next seasons league qualifying positions. Coefficients will be a 5 year live average just like European champions league coefficients. In the first year all coefficients will be set zero.


Conferences:

• New South Wales (NPL NSW)

• Victoria (NPL VIC)

• Queensland (NPL QLD)

• South Australia (NPL SA)

• Western Australia (NPL WA)

• Northern Territory (NPL NT)

• Northern NSW (NPL NNSW)

• Tasmania (NPL TAS)

• Australian Capital (NPL ACT)

• New Zealand (NPL NZ)

_

**NPL Champions League**

Coefficient Ranking Places.

1st - 2 Slots

2nd - 2 Slots

3rd - 2 Slots

4th - 2 Slots

5th - 2 Slots

6th - 2 slots

7th - 1 Slot

8th - 1 Slot

9th - 1 Slot

10th - 1 Slot


Total 16 teams qualify.

• Group Phase: 4x Groups of 4 with total 3 Matches. (Top 2 go to Quarter Finals)

• Quarter Finals: 2-Legs

• Semi Finals: 2-Legs

• Promotion Final #1: Finalist vs 15th team NSD (2-Legs)

• Promotion Final #2: Finalist vs 16th team NSD (2-Legs





Would love to hear people’s thoughts on this. I added NZ to the pyramid because ultimately if NZ teams ever relegated from top 2 divisions they would need a way to earn promotion back.
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Mate, I was wondering when you'd return to posting here 🙂

This is great stuff. I replied to this last year that the biggest problem is season timing. Have a gander below. Option 3 is the best, we need an NST season sitting between tier 1 and 3 seasons. Nothing else works for a fully connected pyramid.

A-League: spring - autumn
NST: winter - summer
NPL: autumn - spring

Without it, we can't have inter-divisional playoffs, and off-seasons would be either too short or too long if promoted or relegated (under 6 weeks or over a year!).

HappyGuus said:
OK one thing I've noticed here is the playoffs between divisions. Unfortunately, this can't be done between divisions that finish their seasons at different times of the year.

Have a peek at my post here about season timing, I've done an entire calendar haha:
HappyGuus

Post in thread 'The Australian Championship 🇦🇺🏆'

Looking at the seasons again, these are the four options as I see it:

1. If NST aligns with A-League (summer):
NPL clubs promoted to NST have a 36 week off-season.

NST clubs relegated to NPL - 40 week off-season.

This could mean that a team that is promoted to NST then relegated back to NPL would only be able to play one season of football over 113 weeks. It won't work.

2. If NST aligns with NPL (winter):
NST clubs promoted to A-League - 56 week off-season. NST would actually finish 4 weeks before the next A-League season starts, but as the NST (and all leagues) need a...
  • Like

In short, playoffs between A-League and Championship can't occur unless they play their seasons at the same time. Likewise, can't have playoffs between NPL CL and Championship for the same reason.

There are three options for the Championship timing:
1. align with A-League and Asia and Europe.
2. align with NPL
3. Go inbetween. NPL starts around late February. Championship starts 14 weeks after that. A-League starts 14 weeks after that.

Option 1 means pro/rel, including playoffs, between A-League and Championship, but they are cut off from pro/rel and playoffs with NPL
Option 2 means pro/rel, including playoffs, between Championship and NPL, but they are cut off from pro/rel and playoffs with A-League.
Option 3 means we can have pro/rel between all of the pyramid, but can't inlude pro/rel playoffs between the divisions. This is the best/only option IMO for a fully connected and feasible pyramid. But in the short term we might see the Championship align with A-League first, then shift later.

I think season timing a critical piece of the "connected pyramid" puzzle. It has to be nailed down early for everything else to flow.
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HappyGuus said:
Looking at the seasons again, these are the four options as I see it:

1. If NST aligns with A-League (summer):
NPL clubs promoted to NST have a 36 week off-season.

NST clubs relegated to NPL - 40 week off-season.

This could mean that a team that is promoted to NST then relegated back to NPL would only be able to play one season of football over 113 weeks. It won't work.

2. If NST aligns with NPL (winter):
NST clubs promoted to A-League - 56 week off-season. NST would actually finish 4 weeks before the next A-League season starts, but as the NST (and all leagues) need a mandatory 6 week post-season rest break, it would be impossible to join A-League that season (and would require at least some sort of pre-season training as well).

A-League clubs relegated to NST - 40 week off-season.

This could mean that a team that is promoted to A-League then relegated back to NST would only be able to play one season of football over 125 weeks. It won't work.

3. If we sit the NST season between current A-League and NPL, then pro/rel with reasonable off-seasons are achievable:
NPL clubs promoted to NST - 26 week off-season.
NST clubs relegated to NPL - 10 week off-season.

NST clubs promoted to A-League - 26 week off-season.
A-League clubs relegated to NST - 10 week off-season.

4. The pyramid aligns neatly with Asia, Europe and A-Leagues, and we can head off to lunch early.


3 and 4 are the only realistic options as far as I can tell. Obviously, option 4 is a piece of piss. So I thought I'd have a crack at a calendar for option 3. This is if the Member Federations want to stay in winter and APL want to stay in summer.

I've done my best to consider transfer windows, Asian competitions, seasons, breaks, finals, cups etc. and I think it flows pretty nicely. I've moved A-League to start during the pre-AFL finals bye round; they can play all the low drawing matches during this period and sharpen their game in time for the Asian comps kicking off. The A-League finals conclude before the AFC finals start, somewhere around Anzac Day.

With the NST I originally had them breaking for the Christmas-New Year period. But then I thought, they'll be professional, so they can play through it like the other professionals. But the option is there to have that break, it won't affect the calendar. The NST has to start before the A-League season, not after, otherwise there won't be enough off-season (1 week in my calendar!) if a team is promoted. The transfer window mightn't be ideal for the NST, it's more in line with what APL want with extra time after Europe closes. But this isn't critical and the window can be shifted a few weeks earlier if required.

The League Cup (optional) and Australia Cup can be flexible around that time of year. When the League Cup group stage is finished and half the clubs are kicked out, then the Aus Cup can start. I've put the Aus Cup final during the week off after the NPL regular season and before their Champions League. The NPL season starts just a couple of weeks later, but this won't affect the federations too much.

If anyone has any thoughts or feedback let me know. I might be overlooking something really simple.

Here's a two year overview of how it could look:


View attachment 703
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0x3mp1r3 said:
Yeah that was my idea.

So for the states that have 2 slots. Their coefficient points are split between their 2 teams, similar to how the AFC splits coefficients for multiple teams from the same country.

Example. If you get 1.5 points for a win, and there are 2 teams from your state, you’d get 0.75 coefficient points for the win
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Get the whole state behind the championship side repping them
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Kalamata FC, first time promoted back into the Super League after 26 years of heartache

Population of approx 50k, yet half the city is in the town square to celebrate the players returning.. THATS what PRO REL is for...

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I can only imagine the positive press if we had P/R here and the underdog club from a regional area gets promoted. It's such a unique opportunity the sport has in this country to stand out from the rest... if only we could take advantage of it.

As for Kalamata FC, I'm sure they'll be pitted against much better opposition next season... I'll see myself out
 
Stu said:
I can only imagine the positive press if we had P/R here and the underdog club from a regional area gets promoted. It's such a unique opportunity the sport has in this country to stand out from the rest... if only we could take advantage of it.

As for Kalamata FC, I'm sure they'll be pitted against much better opposition next season... I'll see myself out
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Well.. look at the press Yoogali got for being kicked out for being regional DESPITE being promoted
 
Stu said:
I can only imagine the positive press if we had P/R here and the underdog club from a regional area gets promoted. It's such a unique opportunity the sport has in this country to stand out from the rest... if only we could take advantage of it.

As for Kalamata FC, I'm sure they'll be pitted against much better opposition next season... I'll see myself out
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From an Aussie equvalency think of Wagga Wagga or Port Maquarie having a local soccer club promoted to the Aleague.. I reckon it would go off here too...
 
grazorblade said:


BIt of discussion and debate with a friendly guest
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Astoundingly well argued Grazor... "What value does Bodo bring to the UCL?" gold, just gold, you could hear Matt's jaw clinch when you landed that one :P

Fact remains, as noble as Windley's intentions are (and I am convinced he is well intentioned) he sees soccer through the prism of APL and AFL/NRL ... when presented with fundamentally unalterable evidence as to why the rest of the world has pro/rel as best practice the response is a spongy defence of "the investors" and that we "ArE UniqUE pty ltd"

He is 100% correct in saying that the APL will NEVER allow their clubs to be relegated... at least he is honest.
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Astoundingly well argued Grazor... "What value does Bodo bring to the UCL?" gold, just gold, you could hear Matt's jaw clinch when you landed that one :P

Fact remains, as noble as Windley's intentions are (and I am convinced he is well intentioned) he sees soccer through the prism of APL and AFL/NRL ... when presented with fundamentally unalterable evidence as to why the rest of the world has pro/rel as best practice the response is a spongy defence of "the investors" and that we "ArE UniqUE pty ltd"

He is 100% correct in saying that the APL will NEVER allow their clubs to be relegated... at least he is honest.
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Thanks for the kind words

Id like to see fans press on two fronts
- what is the best system we can get in the current political environment (as i said on the pod perhaps something even more conservative than what matt suggests)
- how do we change the political environment. I think we need to change the structure of congress. Im not sure how to organize for that but fans need to organize
 
grazorblade said:
Thanks for the kind words

Id like to see fans press on two fronts
- what is the best system we can get in the current political environment (as i said on the pod perhaps something even more conservative than what matt suggests)
- how do we change the political environment. I think we need to change the structure of congress. Im not sure how to organize for that but fans need to organize
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Sadly I dont think there is an avenue for true congress change without the mechanism of marginalised groups moving from "observer" status on the board to voting member... its like watching a glacier put out a grass fire.... The turkeys will never vote for Christmas and in the meantime the Christmas presents are getting cheaper and shittier every year... In a decade or two we are going to wake up on December 25th morning and just go to work like its any other day....
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Sadly I dont think there is an avenue for true congress change without the mechanism of marginalised groups moving from "observer" status on the board to voting member... its like watching a glacier put out a grass fire.... The turkeys will never vote for Christmas and in the meantime the Christmas presents are getting cheaper and shittier every year... In a decade or two we are going to wake up on December 25th morning and just go to work like its any other day....
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Yeah thats why ive floated the idea of a petition to the government?
 
grazorblade said:
Thanks for the kind words

Id like to see fans press on two fronts
- what is the best system we can get in the current political environment (as i said on the pod perhaps something even more conservative than what matt suggests)
- how do we change the political environment. I think we need to change the structure of congress. Im not sure how to organize for that but fans need to organize
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  1. There's probably no system the APL would agree to in the current environment, but I think we're much closer to the time when it will be possible. The franchise model is like a shark - it needs to keep moving forward or it drowns. Continued club ownership issues, no interested investors in Canberra, and a general lack of fan engagement means the APL is drowning. It might continue to limp along for a bit, but I imagine the idea of fresh blood / new interest will seem appealing wherever it comes from.
  2. Sadly, you need to have leverage to make change happen. That's how point 1 feeds in to point 2. If people continue to support the NPL's and Championship/NST however they can (going to games, spreading interesting, watching on TV/YouTube) it shows where people's interest is. If the NST can grow into a H&A competition with decent crowds and solid viewer numbers it becomes a leverage point for the fans to utilise to see change occur. A petition to government can't hurt either.
 
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