Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

[grazorblade]

I wonder if there is some way to be inspired by the asian club coefficient system to determine the minimum slots in the championship from each member fed

 

[rebelliousfeminist974]

So basically the ONLY way that a team can be promoted from NPL into championship would be if a club from that same state is relegated from the championship?

So you’d essentially lock out states from promotion into the championship for multiple years as they would need to wait for a team from their state to be relegated? I feel like that would be a big pain point. Imagine finishing first in your NPL for 5 straight seasons but have no way to move into the championship because a club from your state never finished in the relegation zone.

All the Member Federations will contribute to relegation spots from the Australian Championship depending on their size and there will be an intermediary league where teams can transition into when waiting for a spot to open.

 

[0x3mp1r3]

I wonder if there is some way to be inspired by the asian club coefficient system to determine the minimum slots in the championship from each member fed

Yeah that was my idea.

So for the states that have 2 slots. Their coefficient points are split between their 2 teams, similar to how the AFC splits coefficients for multiple teams from the same country.

Example. If you get 1.5 points for a win, and there are 2 teams from your state, you’d get 0.75 coefficient points for the win

 

[0x3mp1r3]

All the Member Federations will contribute to relegation spots from the Australian Championship depending on their size and there will be an intermediary league where teams can transition into when waiting for a spot to open.

Tbh, personally that’s the only part of your system that I don’t like at all. Everything else is good. Why have a needless intermediary league (3rd league)? Why block clubs from promotion because club from their state hasn’t been relegated from the championship? It’s just a needless roadblock.

The only roadblock should be licensing. Which we should follow how Japan does club licensing based off on-off field factors.

You have clubs with A1 Licensing, Championship Licensing. A team can only be promoted from NPL if they qualify for championship licensing + finish in a promotion slot. And a team can only be promoted from the championship if they qualify for a-league licensing + finish in a promotion slot. Depending on your license = the highest you can go as a club until you meet the criteria to gain a higher license.

 

[HonestSpursFan]

I like this, but could just have a NZ cup similar to Aus Cup where the winner qualifies for Champions league. I think Lichtenstein have the same system in Europe where their European place is done through their national cup

True, that’s a very good point!

Liechtenstein has a unique and unusual system in which the cup winners qualify for the second round of the Conference League qualifiers. This is because Liechtenstein doesn’t actually have a football league, with a football league being one of many basic things the country lacks (it also lacks an airport, a currency, a highway system, a standing military or even a maternity ward at the country’s only hospital, with expecting mothers generally travelling to Austria or Switzerland). Instead, all of Liechtenstein’s seven football clubs and their amateur teams (who are also allowed to play in the cup, i.e. second, third and fourth teams can play in the same cup as first teams) play in the Swiss league system. FC Vaduz, who currently play in the Swiss Challenge League (the second division of Switzerland), have dominated the competition in recent years, having won all but one title since the 1997–98 season (that being USV Eschen/Mauren’s title in 2011–12), with the cup only stopping for the two abandoned seasons during COVID (2019–20 and 2020–21). Overall, Vaduz have won 51 titles and made 64 finals in the cup’s 81 seasons (making it quite an old tournament for such a tiny country, called a “microstate”). In the women’s game, FC Triesen is the main club, and also plays in Switzerland. It provides many of the women’s national team’s players. However, while this has now changed, football never used to be the main sport for women (it was volleyball).

New Zealand already has a cup competition for both men (the Chatham Cup) and women (the Kate Sheppard Cup) so this idea certainly works. They would be an odd one out in the OCL though as no other country’s cup winners qualify. However, it would be a great way to connect the Kiwi pyramid with the Aussie one whilst still allowing Kiwi teams to play in Oceanian football, as they aren’t allowed to play Asian football as they aren’t an AFC member. I guess one problem that could arise is that pro Kiwi teams would tear apart amateur Pacific teams (since the pro Pacific teams are in the OPL which is a closed league, not the OCL which is a continental cup you have to qualify for), even more so than amateur teams like Auckland City do now.

What I still think needs to happen before all this pro/rel stuff though is we need the ALW to have all the same starting teams as the ALM and more importantly it has to be professional. We cannot keep having a semi-pro top league as a top footballing nation in the women’s game.

 

[HonestSpursFan]

They get relegated to their state league.

If the 2 promoted teams come from a different state, then the state league the relegated club goes to would have an extra relegation.

Example.

Sydney United relegated from Championship, but a VIC Team + SA team are promoted. You’d just have NPL NSW have an extra relegation slot that season. The same thing is done all around the world when regional leagues link up with national leagues.

Ah okay, so like my proposal which was based off England’s split to regional leagues from the National League and below?

 

[0x3mp1r3]

Ah okay, so like my proposal which was based off England’s split to regional leagues from the National League and below?

Yes correct. It’s also the same way the Italian leagues and other leagues do it when splitting into regional leagues.

 

[southmelb]

Too many powerful voices in the game see promotion and relegation as a nice feature we get once we get our ducks in a row

This is just the convenient excuse used to keep it on the shelf. Deep down Didiluca knows Victory are never getting 20k week in week out again, or that Perth are never going to get full houses.

The old "lets get our house in order first" has run its course.

 

[NicCarBel]

Yes correct. It’s also the same way the Italian leagues and other leagues do it when splitting into regional leagues.

Yes and no - difference is in Italy is that there's no borders when setting Serie C for example. With 3 conferences, it's determined by the most northern clubs, the most southern clubs, and everything else in the third (with reserves for Serie A/B teams kept separate where possible, eg, 3 or less in the division total).

 

[0x3mp1r3]

Yes and no - difference is in Italy is that there's no borders when setting Serie C for example. With 3 conferences, it's determined by the most northern clubs, the most southern clubs, and everything else in the third (with reserves for Serie A/B teams kept separate where possible, eg, 3 or less in the division total).

Yes, but below serie C ?

I don’t really see serie C as regional, I’d say it’s more of a conference of clubs that merge 3 leagues.

 

[NicCarBel]

Yes, but below serie C ?

I don’t really see serie C as regional, I’d say it’s more of a conference of clubs that merge 3 leagues.

Serie D is similar (though more conferences to split with), but yes, below that it is specific region based.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Honestly, love the discussions here. I posted my version for P/R and fill pyramid last year in this forum and I might be bias, but I honestly believe it’s the best setup or atleast better than what football 360 is suggesting.

The only way I see Australian football progressing long term is by reconnecting all levels of the game in a complete pyramid. This will allow investment in all levels of the game by ambitious clubs and Australian businessmen to strive for promotion to the a-league. The following is what I would love to see implemented over the next 5-10 years. Long story short, we need more games, we need more investment, and I’m not talking about $30m franchises, I’m talking about every club investing in themselves to raise their own standards on and off the field to become professional and move up the pyramid.

• A-League
• Championship
• NPL Champions League (end of each NPL Season)
• National Premier Leagues


**A-League (14-16 teams)**

• Adelaide United

• Brisbane Roar

• Central Coast

• Macarthur FC

• Melbourne City

• Melbourne Victory

• Newcastle Jets

• Perth Glory

• Sydney FC

• Wellington Phoenix

• Western Sydney

• Western United

• Auckland FC

• *Expansion Team 14*

• *Expansion Team 15*

• *Expansion Team 16*



**16 Team League**

• Games: 30 matches H/A season

• Finals: Top 6

• Relegation: 1.5 slots (1 auto / 1 Playoff)



Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: None

• Relegation Playoff: 16th team 2-Leg Playoff with winner of Second Division Promotion Playoff.


**or if we cap at 14 Team League**

• Games: 26 matches H/A season

• Finals: Top 6

• Relegation: 1 Slot (Automatic)


Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: 14th Team Relegated

• Relegation Playoff: None



**Championship (16 Teams)**

• Marconi Stallions

• Preston Lions

• Wollongong Wolves

• APIA Leichhardt / Sydney Olympic

• Sydney United

• Avondale FC

• South Melbourne

• NPL VIC Premiers

• NPL NSW Premiers

• NPL NNSW Premiers

• NPL NZ Premiers

• NPL QLD Premiers

• NPL ACT Premiers

• NPL SA Premiers

• NPL TAS Premiers

• NPL WA Premiers


• Games: 30 Matches H/A Season


Let’s say NSD is locked in at 16 teams. The Variable is the A-League above at 14-16 teams. So here are the following promotion variables.





**14 Team A-League**

• Promotion: 0 Auto, 1 Playoff

• Relegation: 0 Auto, 2 Playoff


Promotion Rules:

• Promotion Automatic: None

• Promotion Playoff: Top 4 Qualify

(Round 1: 1st v 4th & 2nd v 3rd (2-Leg))

(Final Playoff: Winner 1v4 vs Winner 2v3 (2-Leg))

(Winner of Round 2 Promoted to A-League)


Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: None

• Relegation Playoff: 15th team & 16th team in 2-Leg Playoff with winners of NPL Finals.


**16 Team A-League**

• Promotion: 1 Auto, 1 Playoff

• Relegation: 0 Auto, 2 Playoff


Promotion Rules:

• Promotion Automatic: League Winner

• Promotion Playoff: 2nd - 5th Qualify

(Round 1: 2nd v 5th & 3rd v 4th (2-Leg))

(Round 2: Winner 2v5 vs Winner 3v4 (2-Leg))

(Playoff 1: Round 2 Playoff winner vs 15th A-League (2-Leg))

(Winner of Playoff Promoted to A-League)


Relegation Rules:

• Relegation Automatic: None

• Relegation Playoff: 15th team & 16th team in 2-Leg Playoff with winners of NPL Finals.

_
_


**National Premier Leagues**

10 state conference leagues. With a 16 team NPL Champions League Final series to determine Promotion. Teams who qualify for NPL Champions league will earn co-efficient points to determine next seasons league qualifying positions. Coefficients will be a 5 year live average just like European champions league coefficients. In the first year all coefficients will be set zero.


Conferences:

• New South Wales (NPL NSW)

• Victoria (NPL VIC)

• Queensland (NPL QLD)

• South Australia (NPL SA)

• Western Australia (NPL WA)

• Northern Territory (NPL NT)

• Northern NSW (NPL NNSW)

• Tasmania (NPL TAS)

• Australian Capital (NPL ACT)

• New Zealand (NPL NZ)

_

**NPL Champions League**

Coefficient Ranking Places.

1st - 2 Slots

2nd - 2 Slots

3rd - 2 Slots

4th - 2 Slots

5th - 2 Slots

6th - 2 slots

7th - 1 Slot

8th - 1 Slot

9th - 1 Slot

10th - 1 Slot


Total 16 teams qualify.

• Group Phase: 4x Groups of 4 with total 3 Matches. (Top 2 go to Quarter Finals)

• Quarter Finals: 2-Legs

• Semi Finals: 2-Legs

• Promotion Final #1: Finalist vs 15th team NSD (2-Legs)

• Promotion Final #2: Finalist vs 16th team NSD (2-Legs





Would love to hear people’s thoughts on this. I added NZ to the pyramid because ultimately if NZ teams ever relegated from top 2 divisions they would need a way to earn promotion back.

Sorry mate, Im not a fan of the whole 5 year coeffiient method to enable pro rel up from NPL (squads and fates change so drastically in NPL land in that time) but apart from that all great... NOW get those arsehats to implement it so we can all go home happy for once

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

NZ’s equivalent is the National League. I would say they would wanna renegotiate if they were to join because currently the NZNL is the only pathway for Kiwi teams to play in the Champions League as they’re an OFC country, not an AFC one.

Three options could be:

1. The highest-finishing Kiwi team in the A-League gets to play in the OCL
2. New Zealand leaves the OFC and joins the AFC
3. The OFC is abolished and merges with a split AFC (East/West)
4. A playoff system: every Kiwi team plays a playoff tournament to qualify for the OPL

Option 1 could work but only if the NZNL became part of the Aussie pyramid as semi-pro teams like Auckland City would hate to give up their spot that ultimately sees them win the entire comp since the other teams aren’t very good. Option 2 is less realistic as New Zealand would have a harder qualifying route and the remaining OFC nations would mostly be made up of some of the world’s weakest nations. I like Option 3 as I’ve long called for splitting the AFC to make it so the World Cup rotates between both, though I’m not sure if FIFA wants that. Option 4 could also be interesting but it does raise the question of the purpose of the OCL, which is entirely amateur or semi-pro, since we already have the OPL which is pro.

Alternatively we could just keep the status quo: leave the NZNL as its own pyramid but have some NZ teams in our pyramid, similar to how Welsh teams play in England. That gets tricky when they get relegated to the regional tiers but I guess they could just join a specific state’s tier per an agreement. There should also be a pathway for other teams that wish to join the pyramid, such as other OFC teams if they wish to do so. I would split it like this:

Region	State association
East Timor/Indonesia	Northern Territory
Indian Ocean Territories (IOT; Christmas Island & Cocos Islands)	Western Australia
Norfolk Island	NNSW
Northern North Island	NSW
Northern South Island	Victoria
PNG	Queensland
Southern North Island	Victoria
Southern South Island	Tasmania
West Pacific (Fiji, New Cal, Solomons, Vanuatu)	Queensland

Of course those regions are all hypothetical barring the NZ ones. In short, if they got relegated, Auckland FC would play in NSW, Wellington Phoenix would play in Victoria and a new Christchurch/South Island team would play in Tasmania.

Defeats the purpose of these clubs if they dont play "at home" when at lower level... how do they build a fanbase for when they DO make the higher tiers?

 

[0x3mp1r3]

Sorry mate, Im not a fan of the whole 5 year coeffiient method to enable pro rel up from NPL (squads and fates change so drastically in NPL land in that time) but apart from that all great... NOW get those arsehats to implement it so we can all go home happy for once

That’s all well and good. It’s not to enable pro/rel. it’s just to divide the 16 promotion playoff slots from the NPL. Pro/rel is automatically enabled but How would you propose 10 NPL level leagues fighting over 16 NPL promotion playoff slots ?

Coefficients every 5 years ? 3 years ? 2 years ?

I mean, 6 states would have 2 slots, 4 states would have 1 slot.

You’d most likely have NSW, VIC, QLD, NNSW, SA, WA taking 2 slots, and TAS, NT, NZ, ACT taking 1 slot.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

So basically the ONLY way that a team can be promoted from NPL into championship would be if a club from that same state is relegated from the championship?

So you’d essentially lock out states from promotion into the championship for multiple years as they would need to wait for a team from their state to be relegated? I feel like that would be a big pain point. Imagine finishing first in your NPL for 5 straight seasons but have no way to move into the championship because a club from your state never finished in the relegation zone.

Im not sure if thats what Grazor meant... the promotion/relegation would occur from NPL down for the next season for that state, whereas promoton FROM NPL must always be the champion regardless of regional makeup of the tier above.. NO CAVEATS on meritocracy.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

That’s all well and good. It’s not to enable pro/rel. it’s just to divide the 16 promotion playoff slots from the NPL. Pro/rel is automatically enabled but How would you propose 10 NPL level leagues fighting over 16 NPL promotion playoff slots ?

Coefficients every 5 years ? 3 years ? 2 years ?

I mean, 6 states would have 2 slots, 4 states would have 1 slot.

You’d most likely have NSW, VIC, QLD, NNSW, SA, WA taking 2 slots, and TAS, NT, NZ, ACT taking 1 slot.

Thats the big dilemma, but not unresolvable.

 

[0x3mp1r3]

Im not sure if thats what Grazor meant... the promotion/relegation would occur from NPL down for the next season for that state, whereas promoton FROM NPL must always be the champion regardless of regional makeup of the tier above.. NO CAVEATS on meritocracy.

Yes I agree with this. Hence why I wasn’t fond of rebellious feminists idea of only having promotion from NPL if a club from the same state is relegated from the championship. Can’t be blocking clubs from moving up just because a club from their state wasn’t relegated above them

 

[Stu]

In terms of timing, if the Championship runs over summer alongside the A-League (30 rounds plus promotion playoffs would be October to May), the NPL's could play over winter and the champions league promotion competition could run over the period that the Championship currently does. This will allow unsuccessful clubs to compete in their NPL the following season and have a decent break/off-season.

But is the 10 months between seasons for the promoted teams too long?

You could bring the Championship season forward to start in August with a March/April finish, to reduce that to 8 months.

Championship clubs will have academy teams somewhere in the NPL structure, so as an alternative do the NPL's allow the newly promoted club to field a full strength side for their academy team for the first half of the NPL season, so contracted players stay match fit?

Or does that mess around with the integrity of that competition where some clubs have to play the full strength squad and those fortunate to play them later in the year get the youth team?

These will be good problems to have, as it would mean we finally have P&R in Australia

 

[erogenouszone]

https://www.espn.com.au/football/story/_/id/48109150/efl-championship-playoffs-expand-six-teams

 

[NicCarBel]

https://www.espn.com.au/football/story/_/id/48109150/efl-championship-playoffs-expand-six-teams

oh gosh expanding playoff spots - hate it.

Italy is fucking horrible for it in the lower divisions. Serie C (3 conferences of 20) has the champions all directly promoted, with 4 relegated from Serie B. So only 1 extra goes up from Serie C. How many teams take part in the playoffs do you ask? 28. 2nd-10th of each conference, and the winner of the "Serie C Coppa Italia" should they finish outside the top 10 (but not in a relegation spot), which goes to 11th of the conference they compete in, should they already be in the top 10.