Poppa Out

[ClockworkOrange]

It is literally:

Head to Head
Head to Head goal difference
Goal Difference

Had we beat USA, we would not even be worrying about what happening against Paraguay. You an defend this negative football all you want, but the reality is that Poppa is showing himself out of his depth. He's playing defensively to protect his job more than he is to go out and win games and tournaments.

You must have been so disappointed with our win over Turkey, eh? Popa so out of his depth, eh?

 

[zimbos05]

Despite you stating “goal difference doesn’t matter”, the answer to my previous question is that we qualified ahead of Paraguay on GOAL DIFFERENCE.

Yes, but your point was that he didn't go for it against USA because of goal difference. This is terrible game management if so. Winning would have taken that out of the question because Paraguay could not have had more points than us, and head to head would not have mattered.

Also, if he was trying to preserve goal difference, why not try and score goals to reduce the deficit? USA were not threatening nor creating any significant chances. It is all around poor game management.

 

[ClockworkOrange]

Yes, but your point was that he didn't go for it against USA because of goal difference. This is terrible game management if so. Winning would have taken that out of the question because Paraguay could not have had more points than us, and head to head would not have mattered.

Also, if he was trying to preserve goal difference, why not try and score goals to reduce the deficit? USA were not threatening nor creating any significant chances. It is all around poor game management.

My original post was about adaptability when 2-0 down against the US. I still believe that it was more important at that stage not to risk losing by more than 2, than to try to win from 2-0 down.
Do you really think we should have gone all out to get 3 goals in the second half?

 

[zimbos05]

My original post was about adaptability when 2-0 down against the US. I still believe that it was more important at that stage not to risk losing by more than 2, than to try to win from 2-0 down.

Yes, and i contend that we didn't need to just sit back and preserve the 2-0 deficit. We could have actually scored as USA were not threatening. Their 2 goals were also from our mistakes, not their doing. Scoring 1 goal changes the dynamic of that game. It puts pressure on USA and suddenly they become nervy, prone to mistakes. Having a "nah, i'll settle for a 2-0 loss" is a bad mentality to have at this level at a world cup.

 

[ClockworkOrange]

Yes, and i contend that we didn't need to just sit back and preserve the 2-0 deficit. We could have actually scored as USA were not threatening. Their 2 goals were also from our mistakes, not their doing. Scoring 1 goal changes the dynamic of that game. It puts pressure on USA and suddenly they become nervy, prone to mistakes. Having a "nah, i'll settle for a 2-0 loss" is a bad mentality to have at this level at a world cup.

So, he did both. Kept the defence tight, and brought on Ira, Metcalfe and Volpato to add attacking threat.
Don’t get me wrong, I thought the selections for that match were terrible. But I think he adapted ok in the second half.
He basically deployed the same tournament strategy as Guus in 2006. 2 goal win, minimise the damage in the second game, draw the third. Albeit, Popa had nowhere near the quality at his disposal that Guus had.

 

[Alex M]

Yes, and i contend that we didn't need to just sit back and preserve the 2-0 deficit. We could have actually scored as USA were not threatening. Their 2 goals were also from our mistakes, not their doing. Scoring 1 goal changes the dynamic of that game. It puts pressure on USA and suddenly they become nervy, prone to mistakes. Having a "nah, i'll settle for a 2-0 loss" is a bad mentality to have at this level at a world cup.

You need to get some perspective. I know you don't like Popovic as a coach, but not everything he does is bad and it destroys your credibility as a poster when you continually find fault with everything he does. In reality he is pretty astute and understands the game and what he wants from players quite well. His main limitation is that he tends to be more defensively minded tactically and can miss some attacking opportunities as a result. I say this in a nice way but your criticism of him is starting to come over as a touch obsessive.

 

[zimbos05]

So, he did both. Kept the defence tight, and brought on Ira, Metcalfe and Volpato to add attacking threat.
Don’t get me wrong, I thought the selections for that match were terrible. But I think he adapted ok in the second half.
He basically deployed the same tournament strategy as Guus in 2006. 2 goal win, minimise the damage in the second game, draw the third. Albeit, Popa had nowhere near the quality that Guus had.

He did not employ the same strategy. Guus actually went for it and was tactically astute with his subs. We will agree to disagree here. There is general consensus that he got it wrong against USA and that is fair to admit. At a world cup, i'll never be on side with saying, "let's just minimise the damage". It's too defeatist

You need to get some perspective. I know you don't like Popovic as a coach, but not everything he does is bad and it destroys your credibility as a poster when you continually find fault with everything he does. In reality he is pretty astute and understands the game and what he wants from players quite well. His main limitation is that he tends to be more defensively minded tactically and can miss some attacking opportunities as a result. I say this in a nice way but your criticism of him is starting to come over as a touch obsessive.

Because I have a different view to you I don't have perspective? I'm indifferent to Popa. I don't mind him. I've praised him in the past. It's his tactics I don't like. I can be critical of his tactics. As a coach myself, I can analyse what he does and be critical if needs be. I would contend that defending poor choices and bad decisions is worse. I've never said "Popa out". It's a bit limitation to have not being able to identify attacking opportunities.

 

[zimbos05]

You must have been so disappointed with our win over Turkey, eh? Popa so out of his depth, eh?

Obviously I wasn't, and I was on here giving credit where credit is due. I did however say that I hope we don't be as defensive against USA as I felt they were there for the taking.

I'm not against defensive football. I'm only against it if that is your only tactic, especially against teams that you can beat.

 

[Decentric]

National youth league, h&a national second tier, full time strength and conditioning coaches, technical directors at A league clubs helping organize getting a players first 500 senior minutes at an earlier age for both A league and reserve sides would all be a short wish list

a plan towards p&r would be fantastic too

All good!

Points well made, G.

 

[Decentric]

I’ve said it before, but off forum, even in a family get together yesterday where we had 3 different generations of NPL/ state league players, there is far greater appreciation of Popa than on this forum.

After selecting 70 players and trying a plethora of young players, the majority in this thread still think Popa is incorrect in tactics and selections.

Facts:
- 2 games in to the last 10 game phase of WCQ Arnie resigns after a home loss to Bahrain and an away draw to Eredivisie reinforced Indonesia. I point from 2 games.

- Popa takes over. Whereas Arnie played a 4-3-3 with a rotating midfield triangle and part of overall Aus NC, Popa implements more defensive 3-4-3, 5-2-3, 5-4-1 formation depending on main moment of the game, and, part of the pitch the game is played. Over next Asian WCQ 8 games having to play best Asian team ever , Japan, twice, Aus is undefeated and qualifies.

- World Cup - Popa gets Aus through a tough group to knock out phase. Beating Turkey, along with Denmark and Serbia in the WC, is Aus’s zenith on the biggest stage.

- 2014 Ange and 2018 WC with Bert, Aus won no games.

Yet why have Arnie and Popa been so vilified on this forum? Is it group think?

Along with Guus, these 2 Aus home grown coaches have taken Aus to the knockout rounds in the WC.

Do Aus fans innately despise home grown coaches, through some deep seated inferiority complex being an Aussie football fan?

I have been expecting more posters to have said, ‘I was wrong about Popa.’

For the record I agree with most of the Popa detractors with most other of their views about football in general.

 

[zimbos05]

- 2014 Ange

I would love to reply to all of the post in more detail, but I just want to point out that Ange had Spain, Netherlands, and Chile in his group. He was also inheriting a squad that was reliant on the golden generation, so didn't really have too much time between taking over and regenerating the squad for the world cup. He did however win the Asia Cup the following year. So he showed progress and ability to attack, and was rewarded for it.

 

[Decentric]

I would love to reply to all of the post in more detail, but I just want to point out that Ange had Spain, Netherlands, and Chile in his group. He was also inheriting a squad that was reliant on the golden generation, so didn't really have too much time between taking over and regenerating the squad for the world cup. He did however win the Asia Cup the following year. So he showed progress and ability to attack, and was rewarded for it.

All true.

Having said that Ange’s subsequent WCQ campaign was dire.

He fiddled around with a new, experimental 3-6-1 formation in world football for the Roos, that few of the players had played at club level - and was way outside the 10 or so formation derivatives of the NC’s 4-3-3 system players had been inculcated with in a national development system - like Spain, Holland and France - our parent countries for the Aus curriculum.

Comparatively, Arnie and Popa implemented a national team strategy that was easy for Aus players to adopt.

National team coaches have far less time with players than they do at club level.

Then Ange quit, as soon as we qualified - just.

So we got Bert who had too little time with his cattle for the Russian 2018 WC.

 

[Socceroofan4life]

I would love to reply to all of the post in more detail, but I just want to point out that Ange had Spain, Netherlands, and Chile in his group. He was also inheriting a squad that was reliant on the golden generation, so didn't really have too much time between taking over and regenerating the squad for the world cup. He did however win the Asia Cup the following year. So he showed progress and ability to attack, and was rewarded for it.

Ange also took over the national team when it was at it's absolute lowest. Atleast... the lowest I have seen it, i'm on the younger side. I don't think our team has ever looked as bad as it did in 2013.

We were coming off back to back 6-0 losses where we didn't even look like a professional team. We had made absolute no strides in youth development. We were still reliant on golden generation players 7 years on from 2006. Bresciano, Cahiill, Neill, Schwarzer.. all starters under Holger. Matt Mckay was our "solution" to left back. Archie Thompson was still getting capped!!!!!!

Clubless Lucas Neill was still in contention for making the 2014 squad....

Ange had to cull all of that and had to start from fresh with like... two friendlies before the start of the world cup. With pretty much a new squad with little experience in international football let alone a world cup.

He did remarkable work given the situation he was in and did amazing to set us up to win the Asian Cup in 2015. He played more pragmatic football back then too. It wasn't till the late 2018 qualifiers where he went insane with his selections and tactics.

 

[ClockworkOrange]

I would love to reply to all of the post in more detail, but I just want to point out that Ange had Spain, Netherlands, and Chile in his group. He was also inheriting a squad that was reliant on the golden generation, so didn't really have too much time between taking over and regenerating the squad for the world cup. He did however win the Asia Cup the following year. So he showed progress and ability to attack, and was rewarded for it.

I love Ange, but don’t forget in late 2017 we were the width of a post away from being knocked out of WC qualifying by Syria. So not sure how far the NT really progressed.

 

[erogenouszone]

So Leckie who hasn't played much gets a spot in the team. Gets schooled against USA, indirectly costing us s result then gets injured & now is going back to Australia to his club who have to rehabilitate him.

Great selection Popa.

 

[zimbos05]

All true.

Having said that Ange’s subsequent WCQ campaign was dire. He fiddled around with a new 3-6-1 formation that few of the players had played at club level - and was way outside the 10 or so formation derivatives of the NC’s 4-3-3 system players had been inculcated with in a national development system - like Spain, Holland and France - our parent countries for the Aus curriculum.

Comparatively, Arnie and Popa implemented a national team strategy that was easy for Aus players to adopt. National team coaches have far less time with players than they do at club level. Then Ange quit, as soon as we qualified - just. So we got Bert who had too little time with his cattle.

I don't mind that he tried something different. It's more that he was unwilling to not move away from it when it wasn't working that doesn't help. I don't think Popa has implemented a national team strategy. He has implemented his idea, but it is not something that is across all the age groups. If it is, then we have a bit of a problem.

Ange was partly pushed too. Remember all the vitriol he was getting from the Aus media. There was a massive push for Arnie. Ange knew he didn't need that. Can discuss about timing and all, but we also did not treat him fairly.

I love Ange, but don’t forget in late 2017 we were the width of a post away from being knocked out of WC qualifying by Syria. So not sure how far the NT really progressed.

Fair. I would say we still progressed from where we were. It could be argued that Ange helped paper over quite a few cracks and didn't necessarily receive the backing to take us to the next level after the asia cup win.

 

[Decentric]

I love Ange, but don’t forget in late 2017 we were the width of a post away from being knocked out of WC qualifying by Syria. So not sure how far the NT really progressed.

Ange’s zenith was the 2015 Asian Cup. The defensive cohesion between Ryan, Sains and Spira was incredible. I don’t think the 2 CBs ever attained this high level again - and both were young, particularly Sains.

Then Ange’s subsequent WCQ campaign for Russia was awful. He struggled.

 

[NicCarBel]

I love Ange, but don’t forget in late 2017 we were the width of a post away from being knocked out of WC qualifying by Syria. So not sure how far the NT really progressed.

Devils advocate - results/points/etc wise, if you compare the final groups to eachother (and for the campaigns where there's 6 teams instead of 5, adjusting for not having the team that finished 6th's results count), it wasn't that bad from us - it's the fact that Asia progressed so much during that window I think.

In fact, 2022 under Arnie is by far our worst performance using this metric, and look where he took us come finals.

2010 - 20pts, +11 GD
2014 - 13pts, +5 GD
2018 - 15pts, +4 GD
2022 - 9pts, +1 GD
2026 - 18pts, +10 GD (although this is probably helped as well by there being 3 groups instead of 2)

 

[patjennings]

I’ve said it before, but off forum, even in a family get together yesterday where we had 3 different generations of NPL/ state league players, there is far greater appreciation of Popa than on this forum.

After selecting 70 players and trying a plethora of young players, the majority in this thread still think Popa is incorrect in tactics and selections.

Facts:
- 2 games in to the last 10 game phase of WCQ Arnie resigns after a home loss to Bahrain and an away draw to Eredivisie reinforced Indonesia. I point from 2 games.

- Popa takes over. Whereas Arnie played a 4-3-3 with a rotating midfield triangle and part of overall Aus NC, Popa implements more defensive 3-4-3, 5-2-3, 5-4-1 formation depending on main moment of the game, and, part of the pitch the game is played. Over next Asian WCQ 8 games having to play best Asian team ever , Japan, twice, Aus is undefeated and qualifies.

- World Cup - Popa gets Aus through a tough group to knock out phase. Beating Turkey, along with Denmark and Serbia in the WC, is Aus’s zenith on the biggest stage.

- 2014 Ange and 2018 WC with Bert, Aus won no games.

Yet why have Arnie and Popa been so vilified on this forum? Is it group think?

Along with Guus, these 2 Aus home grown coaches have taken Aus to the knockout rounds in the WC.

Do Aus fans innately despise home grown coaches, through some deep seated inferiority complex being an Aussie football fan?

I have been expecting more posters to have said, ‘I was wrong about Popa.’

For the record I agree with most of the Popa detractors with most other of their views about football in general.

I certainly have respect for 'most' of the recent Socceroo managers. That doesn't mean you can't question them.

Venables - but for that serial pest could have taken us to the World cup for the first time since 1974

Farina - did a lot of good things and got some very good results

Hiddink was great - but we left a heap on the bench that could have put us in front before the late Italy penalty.

Arnie - didn't want the job but FFA forced him to.

Pim was dour but very effective in qualifying but set us up wrong against Germany

Ange was great offensively but forgot you had to defend as well. Our fullbacks were too busy feeding Cahill they forgot to keep a straighh line.

BVM - not impressed but not really given time with Ange

Arnie - excellent second time - blooded the majority of the young players now being lauded in our youngest ever team.

Poppa - has done very well but yet to equal Hiddink and Arnie. Making R16 will do that and also make him the only Socceroo manager to win a playoff game.

Now, having said all that, some of Poppa's selections in the squad should be questioned as should his lineup against the US.

Added to which he should not have been extended to the Asian Cup until after the World Cup. If we had three dire results why would you double down. He has earnt that extension now - but similarly I would wait until after the Asian Cup to lock him in for the next cycle. You don't have to say a manager did everything right to respect them or think they have a lot of merit.

I'll be interested in seeing what Poppa does in the coming months because we certainly need to start having the ability to boss games in the middle much more than we are now. We seem to be able to play one way at the moment and its effectiveness is often dictated to us by our opponents. We need to become a more versatile team that can a variety of styles depending on our opponent.

Many CCM fans will listen to Okon talking at half time of games and hear him say (paraphrasing) we just have to do Plan A better. A mature football nation needs to have multiple ways of playing - not just rely on one way.

We had that in 1997 through to 2006 - since then probably only on occasions. I want us to progress. Can Popovic be the right person to do it. I doubt that at the moment but he can make us better.

 

[ClockworkOrange]

pat. Interesting comparison with Hiddink. After Italy went a man down Hiddink basically played for a draw against 10 men with the plan to win with fresh players in extra time.
Maybe that’s where Popa got his USA game plan.