Green & Gold FC podcast

[Monoethnic Social Club]

It is an opinion - backed up by sound tenets.

If you think that a NC based on Spain ( Barca Acad), KNVB, French Clairefontane, etc, is rubbish, what do you propose as an alternative?

You do realise these are world leaders in football, Mono?

You, and other naysayers, can’t propose a sound alternative.

Azerbaijan football curriculum?

YES I think the concept of a football curriculum, ANY football curriculum is rubbish for the stage of development Australia is and has ALWAYS been in... Its well and good to state we follow such lofty philosophies as the KNVB and Barca but even in this flawed experiment we fail... La Macia and the Dutch National FA are two ENTIRELY different things set up for two ENTIRELY different outcomes and if you cant get past this, very elementary stumbling block, any conversation about a national ANYTHING is pointless in my NON FFA accredited view.

If/when we EVER get to the stage were, at 8-10 years old our best footballers already HAVE the basic technical skills developed (the ONLY situation I would personally want some sort of national curriculum for skill acquisition btw) to benefit from a nation wide direction toward system and style then sure, bring on a NC... review it every year absolutely, go to the Dutch and ask their opinion sure, but what we have/had is the ad hozc solution to question nobody was asking... YES we failed to qualify for 3 decades (as do many powerhouses btw) the WC is a hard (or at least was) tournament to qualify for... The 2006 squad did it WITHOUT and NC and the 1998 squad almost did too....

Australian footballers arent ready for a one style fits all system and wont be for a very long time... .

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Many factors were responsible for our so called 32 years of failure- not solely down to a lack of national curriculum.

Take your coach's goggles off, decentric. Nobody here rarely cares about your much vaunted coaching certificates now.

Main factor was that soccer was a marginalised sport in this country, despised by the mainstream.

And still IS the main factor.

 

[theFOOTBALLlover]

YES I think the concept of a football curriculum, ANY football curriculum is rubbish for the stage of development Australia is and has ALWAYS been in... Its well and good to state we follow such lofty philosophies as the KNVB and Barca but even in this flawed experiment we fail... La Macia and the Dutch National FA are two ENTIRELY different things set up for two ENTIRELY different outcomes and if you cant get past this, very elementary stumbling block, any conversation about a national ANYTHING is pointless in my NON FFA accredited view.

If/when we EVER get to the stage were, at 8-10 years old our best footballers already HAVE the basic technical skills developed (the ONLY situation I would personally want some sort of national curriculum for skill acquisition btw) to benefit from a nation wide direction toward system and style then sure, bring on a NC... review it every year absolutely, go to the Dutch and ask their opinion sure, but what we have/had is the ad hozc solution to question nobody was asking... YES we failed to qualify for 3 decades (as do many powerhouses btw) the WC is a hard (or at least was) tournament to qualify for... The 2006 squad did it WITHOUT and NC and the 1998 squad almost did too....

Australian footballers arent ready for a one style fits all system and wont be for a very long time... .

I think a NC is important - we need to have a framework in place of how to teach technical, tactical understanding, fitness and how to lead. It has to be broad enough to teach players to have the technical capabilities to play in numerous systems/ styles. The NC (and the coaching courses) also has to help coaches learn about teaching techniques and leadership styles. I don't think it does a lot of these things and I've done my FA/AFC A Diploma.

I was speaking to a player who went to Germany from an A-league academy. He was talking about one of the things he struggled with in Germany, was he was being asked to play "long balls/ diagonal balls" in behind/ to the opposite winger and he had never been shown the technique/ been asked to do it in Australia. Everything in Australia was about playing short/ playing out from the back as a central defender.

Maybe coaches took the playing out too literally from the courses instead of teaching players when to play through, around or over the opposition depending on the situation.

 

[Decentric]

YES I think the concept of a football curriculum, ANY football curriculum is rubbish for the stage of development Australia is and has ALWAYS been in... Its well and good to state we follow such lofty philosophies as the KNVB and Barca but even in this flawed experiment we fail... La Macia and the Dutch National FA are two ENTIRELY different things set up for two ENTIRELY different outcomes and if you cant get past this, very elementary stumbling block, any conversation about a national ANYTHING is pointless in my NON FFA accredited view.

If/when we EVER get to the stage were, at 8-10 years old our best footballers already HAVE the basic technical skills developed (the ONLY situation I would personally want some sort of national curriculum for skill acquisition btw) to benefit from a nation wide direction toward system and style then sure, bring on a NC... review it every year absolutely, go to the Dutch and ask their opinion sure, but what we have/had is the ad hozc solution to question nobody was asking... YES we failed to qualify for 3 decades (as do many powerhouses btw) the WC is a hard (or at least was) tournament to qualify for... The 2006 squad did it WITHOUT and NC and the 1998 squad almost did too....

Australian footballers arent ready for a one style fits all system and wont be for a very long time... .

La Masia and the KNVB have close links through Cruyff and Van Gaaal.

The two Dutch coaches are great rivals. I’ve read biographies on both. Cruyff revamped La Masia.

If you want to pontificate, you need to acquire more knowledge, Mono.

Unless they can all be lying, Rob Baan, Han Berger, Alistair Edwards, Dean May, Mike Edwards, Ante Jukic, Kurt Reynolds, Norm Boardman, Damian Davies, Phil Moss, Rob Sherman, Ange Postecoglou, all presenting workshops as keynote speakers under the jurisdiction of FFA/ Football Aus, publicly enunciate that France, Netherlands, Germany, Spain - and - the joker in the pack, Italy, plus Belgium and Denmark, have national curricula implemented by their national football Fed Tech Depts.

There are varying degrees of autonomy within that overarching national structure.

 

[Decentric]

I think a NC is important - we need to have a framework in place of how to teach technical, tactical understanding, fitness and how to lead. It has to be broad enough to teach players to have the technical capabilities to play in numerous systems/ styles. The NC (and the coaching courses) also has to help coaches learn about teaching techniques and leadership styles. I don't think it does a lot of these things and I've done my FA/AFC A Diploma.

I was speaking to a player who went to Germany from an A-league academy. He was talking about one of the things he struggled with in Germany, was he was being asked to play "long balls/ diagonal balls" in behind/ to the opposite winger and he had never been shown the technique/ been asked to do it in Australia. Everything in Australia was about playing short/ playing out from the back as a central defender.

Maybe coaches took the playing out too literally from the courses instead of teaching players when to play through, around or over the opposition depending on the situation.

Not sure what Grazor edited on the Podcast, but he had data for this long ball phenomenon being mishit by Aussies more than opponents.

Danny, the former Melb Vic youth coach thought empirically that it was true too.

 

[Decentric]

I think a NC is important - we need to have a framework in place of how to teach technical, tactical understanding, fitness and how to lead. It has to be broad enough to teach players to have the technical capabilities to play in numerous systems/ styles. The NC (and the coaching courses) also has to help coaches learn about teaching techniques and leadership styles. I don't think it does a lot of these things and I've done my FA/AFC A Diploma.

I was speaking to a player who went to Germany from an A-league academy. He was talking about one of the things he struggled with in Germany, was he was being asked to play "long balls/ diagonal balls" in behind/ to the opposite winger and he had never been shown the technique/ been asked to do it in Australia. Everything in Australia was about playing short/ playing out from the back as a central defender.

Maybe coaches took the playing out too literally from the courses instead of teaching players when to play through, around or over the opposition depending on the situation.

Well said, FL.

Wish you posted more often, but I don’t think you follow Aus football.

Not sure if you watched the Podcast? Early on Aussies had to be work very hard to play out from the back - agreed by Dutch assessors - and the FIFA Tech Depts when appraising Aus at WC tournaments, including the senior ones in Germany and South Africa. It became a major objective of the NC.

Did you attend coach education under the old Soccer Aus regime?

 

[theFOOTBALLlover]

Well said, FL.

Wish you posted more often, but I don’t think you follow Aus football.

Not sure if you watched the Podcast? Early on Aussies had to be work very hard to play out from the back - agreed by Dutch assessors - and the FIFA Tech Depts when appraising Aus at WC tournaments, including the senior ones in Germany and South Africa. It became a major objective of the NC.

Did you attend coach education under the old Soccer Aus regime?

I'm currently coaching in the NPL NSW Men's First Grade space and a sports school. I've started watching A-League Men and Women again. Curious about the level and supporting players I coach/ have coached, not about the clubs.

I listened to the Podcast today. I enjoyed it. I started the courses around 2013 with Oscar Gonzalez. I did my A Diploma two years ago with Ian Crook and Ron Smith.

Hoping to do my Pro Diploma soon but, as you know, it is difficult to get in.

 

[grazorblade]

Not sure what Grazor edited on the Podcast, but he had data for this long ball phenomenon being mishit by Aussies more than opponents.

Danny, the former Melb Vic youth coach thought empirically that it was true too.

Yeah our long passes are roughly half as accurate as japan and south korea as well as decent foreign nations

 

[grazorblade]

One of the things that Grazor hit on, and he has quite a good understanding of the highly technical and cerebral NC for someone who hasn't been involved in the Aus coaching system to semi-pro level, is that stuff we've used for years may seem so highly technical and jargonistic to the average fan.

Grazor is a smart bloke, being a physics Prof, but if he is saying the NC is cerebral, technical and jargonistic, it must be.

Yeah its mostly that i have to think every day how to reduce jargon, acronyms and explain things in the simplest possible way as a key competency for my job. I didnt get the impression that had happened in the ntc

Havind said that i dont always practice what i preach when talking footy. I need to find a better term than zone 14 and half space...

 

[grazorblade]

My take on the NC situation is that well-intentioned though the KNVB-adherence might’ve been, we did throw out the baby w/the bathwater(an analogy Les Scheinflug himself once used in an interview on this issue) in not retaining aspects of the methodologies/practices used by the post-WW2 migrant-communities; methodologies which pointedly resulted in us qualifying for the ‘74 WC, the inception of the NSL and then the Golden Generation further down the track.

It’s been suggested by some that one of the failings of ‘old-sokkah’ was the alleged lack of methodological cross-pollination bc the individual communities believed that their own way was the best. I can’t speak to how true that was across the board(maybe in isolated instances here&there), but it’s an intriguing hypothesis for whatever it’s worth.

Yeah that was interesting

I can testify that my grassroots experience (as i say on the article) would have been much better if they followed the small sided games in the national curriculum. I think centralization is good for lifting minimum standards but bad of it crosses the line in stifling innovation

It looks like clubs are developing their own methodology, but we need a way for their innovation to trickle down (whether the suggestion i gave in the article or another one)

 

[grazorblade]

ANOTHER failing may be that after nearly 20 years the current realisation is that its more desirable for each "Academy" to generate their own coaching methodology rather than adhere to a one size fits all model... Housebreaking stuff eh?.

To be fair, I think a nc is great for grassroots and lifting minimum standards, i would have loved the nc to be around when i was a kid so i dont half my training doing pushups sprints and burpees and the other half doing an 11v11 game lol

But as u imply, innovation needs to driven by clubs rather than from a central government (which doesnt work in any sector). The nc itself is from methodologies developed at elite clubs, then getting passed onto their governing bodies to develop coaching courses so that the knowledge trickles down

 

[grazorblade]

Don’t forget Les is speaking from the perspective of 32 years of failure to qualify for senior World Cups in Aus. It was no coincidence.

There was no implementation by Ron Smith, Raul Blanco and Les of any NC to be applied Auswide.

What we learned in Soccer Aus coach education pre 2008 was very little compared to the post Baan/ Berger/Abrahms era.

Definitely agree that the knowledge from elite clubs, whether here or abroad needed to be distributed more. 32 years of failure is very harsh, our elo grew year on year and peaked from 97-2011 when the golden gen were around and hasnt recovered (slightly improvement lately)
Also the first kids to go through the sap are those 2005 born or 2000 born depending on which version you take of the nc (i take the 2nd). Clearly there has been improvement comparing those born 2005 to others in the a league era, but arguably our first wc qualification that is affected by the nc will be the 2030 one?

 

[grazorblade]

Wrong.

An ad hoc approach ensues.

Powerhouses have holistic systems and NCs, as guidelines to all. Exemplified in Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Spain.

When u mean ad hoc being that academies innovate and develop their own methodologies?

While it is true all countries have coaching courses (aka a national curriculum) i believe the methodology in those coaching courses came from clubs like barca and ajax then trickled down by that knowledge and innovation generated being given from clubs to the governing body

Centralization is good at improving minimum standards but no centralized system ever does well on innovation. It sounds like the nc hasnt evolved, which is expected under centralization

If we exactly immitated powerhouses we would constantly consult our clubs' academies for improvements in the coaching courses, year in year out to keep improving minimum standards while clubs do their own thing to drive innovation. I of course suggest an even less centralized system in my article, which would take the economic lessons of other parts of society and apply it to football coaching

 

[grazorblade]

I think a failing of the current NC is that it doesn’t appear to me to have been updated, and maybe not even reviewed in any depth, for maybe 10 years. The documents I see still seem to be based around how football was played at the 2010 World Cup. Football constantly evolves, so if we are going to have an NC worth its salt then it must be under a system of constant review and being changed as required.

While 2010 does not seem that long ago to me, for a 20- or early 30-something person in the coach development system the 2010 WC probably seems like half a lifetime ago when they were at primary school or a teenager. So the current NC runs the risk of appearing to be out of date at the least. Coach education not only needs to revolve around current concepts and thinking, it also needs to be seen to revolve around that as well.

It seems to me that FA has almost forgotten about its role in managing the NC. Possibly not surprising, as from the outside it looks to me that FA is becoming more and more dysfunctional.

Indeed it would need to be updated every year to keep with the times

 

[grazorblade]

KC was part of the old regime and just managed to stay in with the new.

He was around Ad Derkson and Arie Schans when Rob Baan brought them to Aus to train AL youth coaches, and, some youth coaches from the regions.

KC barely muttered a word over the two week course. He was in awe of them - after previously being a key figure in the Soccer Australia Tech Dept.

KC didn’t write the NC at all. He wrote up the drafted notes accrued by the 13 FFA coaches who traversed the world gaining the NC content. He might have put it into education modules to make it ‘course friendly’ as a former teacher though. In this KC did a good job.

Interesting history

 

[grazorblade]

I'm currently coaching in the NPL NSW Men's First Grade space and a sports school. I've started watching A-League Men and Women again. Curious about the level and supporting players I coach/ have coached, not about the clubs.

I listened to the Podcast today. I enjoyed it. I started the courses around 2013 with Oscar Gonzalez. I did my A Diploma two years ago with Ian Crook and Ron Smith.

Hoping to do my Pro Diploma soon but, as you know, it is difficult to get in.

Thanks for your grassroots work!

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

I think a NC is important - we need to have a framework in place of how to teach technical, tactical understanding, fitness and how to lead. It has to be broad enough to teach players to have the technical capabilities to play in numerous systems/ styles. The NC (and the coaching courses) also has to help coaches learn about teaching techniques and leadership styles. I don't think it does a lot of these things and I've done my FA/AFC A Diploma.

I was speaking to a player who went to Germany from an A-league academy. He was talking about one of the things he struggled with in Germany, was he was being asked to play "long balls/ diagonal balls" in behind/ to the opposite winger and he had never been shown the technique/ been asked to do it in Australia. Everything in Australia was about playing short/ playing out from the back as a central defender.

Maybe coaches took the playing out too literally from the courses instead of teaching players when to play through, around or over the opposition depending on the situation.

I think its like u12 players cutting holes out of the back of their football socks so they ncan look like pro players... Perhaps beneficial but we need to get the fundamentals in place first before we go down that path....

Your example perfectly illustrates what I am talking about....

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

La Masia and the KNVB have close links through Cruyff and Van Gaaal.

The two Dutch coaches are great rivals. I’ve read biographies on both. Cruyff revamped La Masia.

If you want to pontificate, you need to acquire more knowledge, Mono.

Unless they can all be lying, Rob Baan, Han Berger, Alistair Edwards, Dean May, Mike Edwards, Ante Jukic, Kurt Reynolds, Norm Boardman, Damian Davies, Phil Moss, Rob Sherman, Ange Postecoglou, all presenting workshops as keynote speakers under the jurisdiction of FFA/ Football Aus, publicly enunciate that France, Netherlands, Germany, Spain - and - the joker in the pack, Italy, plus Belgium and Denmark, have national curricula implemented by their national football Fed Tech Depts.

There are varying degrees of autonomy within that overarching national structure.

You poor sad man... La Masia is the football academy of CLUB side FC Barcelona NOT the Spanish FA thats my point, and despite Van Gaals two brief stints there he is widely regarded as one of the worst managers in Camp Nou history. You can read as many biographies as you want and name drop even more nobodies, nothing you say means a pinch of shit.. Sure, its an opinion, and your entitled to it but it is JUST that an opinion.

I wouldn't call foul on others "pontificating" if I was you, your attempt to constantly "intellectualise" your word salad when pressed to defend your point, comes across as the ramblings of an insecure know-nothing.

Enunciate that.

 

[Pasquali]

 

[grazorblade]

You poor sad man... La Masia is the football academy of CLUB side FC Barcelona NOT the Spanish FA thats my point, and despite Van Gaals two brief stints there he is widely regarded as one of the worst managers in Camp Nou history. You can read as many biographies as you want and name drop even more nobodies, nothing you say means a pinch of shit.. Sure, its an opinion, and your entitled to it but it is JUST that an opinion.

I wouldn't call foul on others "pontificating" if I was you, your attempt to constantly "intellectualise" your word salad when pressed to defend your point, comes across as the ramblings of an insecure know-nothing.

Enunciate that.

the heat in this is depressing to read, think most people who argue online would get along in person

As I said before, I do agree that it should be clubs driving the innovation. Having said that, I wonder how much people talk past other. When people say they are agains the national curriculum, I think a lot of people hear

1) the massive change from a fitness bootcamp where you rarely see a ball to small sided games compared to what i experienced as a kid shouldn't have happened (to be fair that was in QLD, things were probabably very different for nsl club juniors)
2) There shouldn't be c,b,a and pro liscences that we have like in every other country
3) there shouldn't have been an attempt to make basic coaching knowledge more widespread (particularly for us in rural areas)

of course I know that's not what many people's objections to the ntc was, but I do think it's important to know where some people in the football community are coming from