why is your take P/R would change the Q a bit ?

LFC said:

this one ? back in 2013 this interview...I think its riverting reading for many newbies to get understanding instead of wiki/google searchs and what the modern day FFA/FA sprouted obviously pushing their barrow to the general pop and bogan in the view of fish where the fish are........

The forgotten story of ... Andrew Dettre and Soccer World

Joe Gorman: A giant of football journalism, Andrew Dettre was a visionary of the sport's future in Australia

www.theguardian.com

“They came from good clubs in Hungary, became refugees in Germany, they were accepted as migrants to Australia, and when they got here they wanted to play football. But they didn’t want them. I remember lots of little scandals at Bankstown, Granville, Macarthur Park and so on. They said ‘come back some other time.’ They didn’t want them in case they disrupted the Anglo-Saxon unity. It was a deep prejudice.”

I ask Andrew whether he feels that the game has finally made it. Many of his concepts and ideas, while unappreciated, have since come to fruition. “It doesn’t really matter,” he responds, drawing out the last two words slowly. “Deep down in my heart, I always feel, it doesn’t matter whether we are number one. We should love the game of soccer because we feel that it’s a superior sport. But we should try to live within our means.”

The above in bold is spot on and as many have said, focus on US and our game, stop worrying about other codes, more so about bloody crowds that became a principle about $.
First build it, then they/we will come - extended fam start coming, friends of friends, ethnic aussie root Club are the foundations.
P/R would run its course Cunningstunt, the mention of what would some ethnic clubs do/decide/yes spot on.
Some would get right behind playing in the top flight some would opt happily staying in lower Divs.
This is a football eco system - us and many in the football system will follow, those on the outside come and go.

Thirty five years on, Andrew maintains his position, explaining that many clubs from around the world have maintained their foreign symbolism from another era, whether it be Corinthians in Brazil or Milan in Italy.

“The names were the glue. Hakoah was a Jewish club, and they said ‘why hide it?’ The Jews suffered enough during World War Two, we don’t have to be ashamed. It was the same at St George Budapest, which was called Budapest at the time. They were all Hungarians, all 11, because there were so many of them!

Click to expand...

Dettre was the OG, no doubt

That being said, I feel there was something of a Sydney/NSW-centricness in his outlook re. the game in this country. It’s a pity that to the best of my knowledge, there was no contemporary counterpart of his who settled in VIC/any of the Aussie Rules states instead.

I can’t help but think that if there had been, that guy would’ve been more inclined to think there was no point in appealing to the mainstream whatsoever, whereas Dettre always saw the logic in both schools of thought.

then how is this gem of Dettre's.....

TBH all this deserves a new thread elsewhere for all to see - IF mods like to shift both these articles in a better spot do so.

Migrants, such visionaries to this country's cloth.
Yes I'm mightly proud coming from migrant parents, yep proud aussies maybe even more than the original skips because we,well the gens before had to earn it despite being treated like POS they kept getitng back on their feet.
Football back in my young 70's playing days was like that - how you were treated and looked upon at school and in everyday life and ironcally the same ethnic clubs been treated as such and frowned upon to this day by the new dawners/outsiders and still the media.

Cunningstunt said:

I was using the examples from the Aleague as a proxy but engagement with club football generally is more what I am talking about. Which you already do. Now that I am a fully fledged member of the pro/rel club, in a world where we got this over the line, access to the national competition wouldn't be restricted.

I was just trying to find an article from 15 years ago about Andrew Dettre looking at the back and forth he went through about the ethnic club question through the 60s to the 80s, but I can't remember where it is from. He had gone back and forth on the issue multiple times in terms of what is best. But I think pro/rel might make the question redundant.

If the competition grew massively, the traditional clubs could make their own decisions about what is important to them. Do they maintain their roots and potentially limit their growth, thereby likely getting relegated or do they attempt to reach a broader audience? The league has answered this question for everyone since it commenced. But opening it up seems to shift the question away from the league and onto the clubs. I suspect the former, which is fine, but interested in your thoughts.

This is pretty pie in the sky stuff at this point.

Click to expand...

And it will be pie in the sky stuff for the foreseeable future as long as the division between one league and another isnt about football but about finance.

Like many other NSL fans at the time, I suspect, the initial knee jerk reaction to being "excluded" from the Aleague was seen through the understandable lens of ethnicity. It still partially is, but the more ominous reality is that the initial exclusion by Lowy was an attempt at deriving value and profit from football rather than sporting prowess. And it still is..

Im very much a club above everything person as I believe that each individual club is the "brick" which can build a skyscraper. The bricks on the bottom floors are the ones holding the penthouse division aloft. Its an absolute no brainer that traditional clubs would need to either grow or die out if faced with the prospect of competing at a national level again. Many of them at least tried to even in the NSL days. I believe (as does 99% of the rest of the world) that the fairest way would be to allow them, as clubs, to face that decision on their own. Pro/Rel is an expression of that very concept of sporting "survival of the fittest" which means a club has to be top notch on and off the pitch to climb the levels or remain at the top. If a Sydney United (for an example only) can retain their fierce Croatian identity off the pitch, make it attractive enough to enough fans to fill their stadium every second week and maintain enough of a sporting output that they don't finish bottom three then why would a league structure have ANY say in that? People hating them and what they stand for is irrelevant to their survival, if anything it makes it a tasty rival on the pitch for other fan groups... Now obliviously nobody is condoning illegal activities here but if the club and its members can sustain themselves and grow that can, in my eyes, be only beneficial in growing the footprint of the sport... ALOT more so than capping any ambition this club can have behind an exclusion from the top flight.

This thread is mainly about how we, as football fans, perceive the other codes fearing or hating us as a sport... I think, we fear/hate each other more. We have THOUSANDS of football clubs all around this country, quite literally thousands, when AFL has maybe 300 at best, and Im not sure about rugby but assume similar. THOUSANDS of clubs that we should be looking to make as professional as possible as soon as possible. THAT will help us win a World Cup one day ....... end of rant... soz.

BA81 said:

Dettre was the OG, no doubt

That being said, I feel there was something of a Sydney/NSW-centricness in his outlook re. the game in this country. It’s a pity that to the best of my knowledge, there was no contemporary counterpart of his who settled in VIC/any of the Aussie Rules states instead.

I can’t help but think that if there had been, that guy would’ve been more inclined to think there was no point in appealing to the mainstream whatsoever, whereas Dettre always saw the logic in both schools of thought.

Click to expand...

haha - am I reading Original Gangster ? help

Well ofcourse he saw it very Sydney its home right - plus don't forget comms was very different, TBH I hardly recall hearing much general news what happenned in any cap city back then.
Maybe those gang shootings in Melb from way back if I recall right but it had to be like a national big drama.
Agree IF only someone similar was based in Melb, he prob would have been driven out by the Barrisi and types mind you.
The rivalry was much much stronger than nowadays hence was never going to happen I suppose.

Edit after Mono's post above.
Yep, we have the power but one of our own divided the game - not just he but he was a massive player.
Our fish/supporters are the future that have been "penned" like a massive school of fish in turn our Clubs.
Funnily in business you'd be taking on X for restriction of Trade - thats what has happenned to all our Clubs.

LFC said:

haha - am I reading Original Gangster ? help

Click to expand...

Damn straight

LFC said:

Agree IF only someone similar was based in Melb, he prob would have been driven out by the Barassi-types mind you.

Click to expand...

The bloke’s home/workplace would’ve been firebombed at least once, make no mistake
(If not by Barassi himself, then Jack Dyer certainly would’ve volunteered)

As a ️ fan of ethnic-background, I sure am fvcken grateful to not have been around yet then, in this town.

LFC said:

why is your take P/R would change the Q a bit ?

Click to expand...

Historically it has often been the league which has imposed the rules on club identity from the top down. If the league just administers on football, the clubs need to decide if they want to be 'handicapped' by attaching themselves to a smaller section of the population. In a hypothetical world where MVC, WSW, SFC, BRI have 100,000 members, would South or Marconi be able to grow to be that type of club? Very hard within the Greek or Italian community but easier if they expand their appeal. But with pro/rel it wouldn't really matter if they did or not.

All very hypothetical and needs a lot of growth to go alongside P/R for this to be a thing. At the current level, the traditional clubs would be just fine.

Cunningstunt said:

Historically it has often been the league which has imposed the rules on club identity from the top down. If the league just administers on football, the clubs need to decide if they want to be 'handicapped' by attaching themselves to a smaller section of the population. In a hypothetical world where MVC, WSW, SFC, BRI have 100,000 members, would South or Marconi be able to grow to be that type of club? Very hard within the Greek or Italian community but easier if they expand their appeal. But with pro/rel it wouldn't really matter if they did or not.

All very hypothetical and needs a lot of growth to go alongside P/R for this to be a thing. At the current level, the traditional clubs would be just fine.

Click to expand...

The Aleague clubs however cannot decide on ANY aspect of their identity, the APL owns their image, name, colours etc... Any change would need approval from head office.

BA81 said:

Dettre was the OG, no doubt

That being said, I feel there was something of a Sydney/NSW-centricness in his outlook re. the game in this country. It’s a pity that to the best of my knowledge, there was no contemporary counterpart of his who settled in VIC/any of the Aussie Rules states instead.

I can’t help but think that if there had been, that guy would’ve been more inclined to think there was no point in appealing to the mainstream whatsoever, whereas Dettre always saw the logic in both schools of thought.

Click to expand...

If you're not in Sydney you're camping right?

Sorry derailed the thread a bit, but interesting discussion I think.

Anyway back to it. Fuck afl

BA81 said:

Be aware that introducing pro/rel to the AL and the ensuing return to top-flight ️ of ‘monoethnic’ clubs is gonna instantly turn off some(if not a sizeable-enough number) of the ‘mainstream’ demographic in question - though the obv. upside is it’ll automatically weed out the racist/xenophobe bogans, plus those who’re only willing to ‘give the sokkah a go’ if it aesthetically resembles AFL/NRL etc. as much as possible.

(Which is a win/win for me personally, LOL)

Banter aside though, if I absolutely HAVE to be put on the spot re. a suggestion on how to appeal to the mainstream, well..I would state that a ️ version of The Footy Show, if done just right, would at the very least help cement the cultural-permanence of our game in the sporting-landscape even w/o converting a significant amount of people to it..

I’m reminded of an interview years ago w/Trevor Marmalade from the AFL Footy Show where he stated the show always got surprisingly plenty of fan-mail/feedback from viewers who openly admitted disinterest in Aussie Rules as a sport..but were rabid fans of the show nonetheless bc of its humour and how engaging it was!

Click to expand...

Didn't we have something like this when Santo, Sam and Ed's Total Football was on? Admittedly on Foxsports though, so the potential viewing audience was limited compared to a FTA show.

Cunningstunt said:

If you're not in Sydney you're camping right?

Click to expand...

Much as I love Paul Keating, he seemingly got the idea for that quote from former New York City mayor Ed Koch.

Cunningstunt said:

Anyway back to it. Fuck AFL

Click to expand...

Keeper66 said:

Didn't we have something like this when Santo, Sam and Ed's Total Football was on? Admittedly on Foxsports though, so the potential viewing audience was limited compared to a FTA show.

Click to expand...

Yes..and no. Same w/Thursday FC on SBS back when Lucy Zelic was relevant for her hotness.

When I say “equivalent of The Footy Show”, I mean in that exact vein - the same type of humour(even if to fit modern sensibilities it’d have to skew more self-deprecatingly than the original) etc., which is admittedly why it’d be such a tall order in bringing about.

BA81 said:

Damn straight

The bloke’s home/workplace would’ve been firebombed at least once, make no mistake
(If not by Barassi himself, then Jack Dyer certainly would’ve volunteered)

As a ️ fan of ethnic-background, I sure am fvcken grateful to not have been around yet then, in this town.

Click to expand...

thanks got it hahahaha
Mate I tell you - it was bad enough up here those days - NRL had the ol sissy whip and the general followed far more than todays outlook.

Cunningstunt said:

Historically it has often been the league which has imposed the rules on club identity from the top down. If the league just administers on football, the clubs need to decide if they want to be 'handicapped' by attaching themselves to a smaller section of the population. In a hypothetical world where MVC, WSW, SFC, BRI have 100,000 members, would South or Marconi be able to grow to be that type of club? Very hard within the Greek or Italian community but easier if they expand their appeal. But with pro/rel it wouldn't really matter if they did or not.

All very hypothetical and needs a lot of growth to go alongside P/R for this to be a thing. At the current level, the traditional clubs would be just fine.

Click to expand...

OK numbers/members.
For starters nothing ventured nothing gained talking today and ahead.
Were a far different world compared to the times when our own governance were in desperate hands wondering how can we grow - oh lets re brand yaddayadda.
I don't know IF you get down the trenchs and be around our clubs.
Its nothing like of old re members and their roots.
Bit like back in my young whenever you saw a big model Merc/BM was driven by white collar big wigs or Doctors.
How many drive those cars today from all walks of life - well same applies to the original ethnic clubs.
Africans/asians/Arabics all mix in these clubs today - infact some have far less of their old ehtnic dna but its the clubs badge of honour and the players and fams get right behind the club - the appeal has expanded to my kid wants to play football, not oh which ethnic club is it.

Yes agreed good discussion - it does apply here for this is what those other codes do fear, bugger worrying about them worry about enriching our Clubs to grow and it would prosper.

Cunningstunt said:

If you're not in Sydney you're camping right?

Sorry derailed the thread a bit, but interesting discussion I think.

Anyway back to it. Fuck afl

Click to expand...

Melba's would say clamping just so they think they are above hahahaha
OK ok joke fellas.

LFC said:

thanks got it hahahaha
Mate I tell you - it was bad enough up here those days - NRL had the ol sissy whip and the general followed far more than todays outlook.


OK numbers/members.
For starters nothing ventured nothing gained talking today and ahead.
Were a far different world compared to the times when our own governance were in desperate hands wondering how can we grow - oh lets re brand yaddayadda.
I don't know IF you get down the trenchs and be around our clubs.
Its nothing like of old re members and their roots.
Bit like back in my young whenever you saw a big model Merc/BM was driven by white collar big wigs or Doctors.
How many drive those cars today from all walks of life - well same applies to the original ethnic clubs.
Africans/asians/Arabics all mix in these clubs today - infact some have far less of their old ehtnic dna but its the clubs badge of honour and the players and fams get right behind the club - the appeal has expanded to my kid wants to play football, not oh which ethnic club is it.

Yes agreed good discussion - it does apply here for this is what those other codes do fear, bugger worrying about them worry about enriching our Clubs to grow and it would prosper.

Click to expand...

No engagement with the old clubs aside from watching TWG and following potential Socceroos. This was the start of the 2000s. I remember when Parramatta Power made the grand final and my mates and I briefly discussed attending. We were 10 minutes from Parra stadium, played football together, but the NSL as an entity was just nothing. The brand was completely unsalvageable and that stink tarred the clubs.

It makes sense regarding the changes because those circumstances when most of these clubs formed were pretty unique for that time and place. I could see a world where you guys could do what SFC did at Leichardt Oval, getting 10k to matches in an open comp. But in that world other clubs are getting 30k. There is more limitation than just ethnicity. SFC, WSW, MAC have entire regions of Sydney they represent, you blokes have an individual suburb. So it presents its own challenge. Never impossible but harder nonetheless.

Side note; I worked with a life member for you blokes, he was a big Man Utd supporter though haha. Not the most tech savvy so we would change his computer background to a Liverpool logo for a laugh.

Edit: Follow on to this. I remember after you had beaten Rockdale in a semi-final maybe, around 2015? It was just after we had released Ante Covic and he signed with Rockdale. Apia dominated the match but could barely beat Covic. He came into work later that night when we were covering EPL games and gave me a huge gob full about how we needed our heads checked for releasing this bloke as he was the best keeper in the country.

I'd watch the hell out of a Australian footy show type program. We really should copy the paramount champions league panel Jamie, Michael, Kate and roy are hilarious

Cunningstunt said:

Marketing is a weird thing. Why some things work and other don't. You could argue that promotion appealing to people like us isn't really needed as we are already invested. So what is the point of doubling down to attract people who are already involved.

I remember MVC selling out docklands with 40k two matches in a row (SFC and MCY). Crowds overall being much stronger in Brisbane, WSW, Wellington. This was under CEOs who were criticised a lot for seeking the mainstream appeal. But this would have us in a much better position compared to today.

There are people who want football to remain a victim in the sheilas, wogs and poofters mode (not saying this is yourself), boohooing about all the injustices it/they suffer. They prefer it to be alternative or niche. They might not state it but their actions do. This isn't how we win a world cup, the sport needs to be big and mainstream.

Click to expand...

Post of the Year, give this man a knighthood.

Sharkman84 said:

Post of the Year

Click to expand...

Again, it’s all easier said than done. And the current FootballAUS/APL brainstrust have utterly fumbled.

BA81 said:

Again, it’s easier said than done.

Click to expand...

The man does have a valid point, there are some in here that thrive on victimhood and want the game to be stuck in the "sheilas, wogs and poofters" mentality.

Wanting to sideline mainstream society sounds as snobbish as the late SBS doyen Les Murray was in the old NSL era when he derided Northern Spirit as a waste of time saying they catered to a market that didn't exist yet.

Sharkman84 said:

The man does have a valid point, there are some in here that thrive on victimhood and want the game to be stuck in the "sheilas, wogs and poofters" mentality.

Wanting to sideline mainstream society sounds as snobbish as the late SBS doyen Les Murray was in the old NSL era when he derided Northern Spirit as a waste of time saying they catered to a market that didn't exist yet.

Click to expand...

We don’t need to sideline ‘mainstream’- society from ️, when they’ve literally done the most bang-up job of it themselves for the past 150 years and counting..

It’s obv we’re ideologically-opposed on this point so agree to disagree, then