zimbos05 said:

Let's just look at the last 10 years in the US. Do you think people want to find common ground? We literally had rallies where people were saying no to migration, and fuelling that with Neo-Nazi ideology and rhetoric.

Come on man, that's a pretty weak statement to make, and it's also an easy statement to make. I'm not going to assume anything about you, but for someone like me, those statements do nothing. I'm one of the people that would be kicked out, or harassed and abused simply based on my skin colour alone. I don't have the luxury of privilege or waiting for people to find common ground.

I agree with you on the distractions that they create, but sometimes you need revolutions to fix shit.

I'm not advocating violence, but it's quite clear that one side is intent on violence and willing to kill for their ideology.

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For the absolute vast majority of people it's got nothing to do with skin colour. There were non white people and migrants at the marches in Australia on the anti immigration side. It's their agreement in a viewpoint that had them side by side.

Put mixed race people in a room and have some act like dickheads and others not. You'll quickly see who people will want to be around.

In the meantime society can work towards eradicating the views of hatred towards others. That's something discussed in the racism and hatred thread.

JS96 said:

For the absolute vast majority of people it's got nothing to do with skin colour. There were non white people and migrants at the marches in Australia on the anti immigration side. It's their agreement in a viewpoint that had them side by side.

Put mixed race people in a room and have some act like dickheads and others not. You'll quickly see who people will want to be around.

In the meantime society can work towards eradicating the views of hatred towards others. That's something discussed in the racism and hatred thread.

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As much as you can make that first statement, you can't say make it when the vast majority of the people in those marches are white, and the marches were organised by those with racist ideology behind them.

roosty said:

Fair enough. But what’s apparent is dialogue is dead and there’s no point trying to argue and reason via our viewpoints anymore. If one cannot state a simple truth such as “men cant have babies” without being branded transphobe , evil, fascist etc we really ought to cease communicating at all and segregate society according to right and left. The right wont want to give up its right to state simple truths and the left wont want to give up its right to control, cancel , assassinate speech it perceives at hate filled. So we are at an impasse without any feasible way forward, other than say civil war or segregation. The current status quo cannot continue since its now no longer just disagreements about speech and policy but has morphed into a culture of assassination and gravedancing. This isnt sustainable.

It seems like democracy is essentially dead and I’m not even sure the left wants democracy anymore. Why would they when people like Kirk constantly make their viewpoints seem retarded and they had no way to fire back other than with, ironically, a gun.

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I was kind of understanding you until you implied Kirk made rational points and blamed the left for everything.

You were rational until you said, "the left are the problem and at fault for everything".

Muz said:

That's the whole thing though. They embolden the worst parts of humanity to stick their head above the parapet and it creates actual harm.

But it's harm that affects marginalised people so who gives a fuck? Amirite?

Meanwhile the 'left's' crime, amongst outrages, is to say you should be nice to trans people.

Oh the humanity, how will the world go on.

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Have any cities been burnt due to this shooting?

Why do you think people have taken to parts of Kirk's message? Students took to his message because they were tired of being berated on campus for having any opinion of their own. Anti civil rights views must not be tolerated but nearly every other topic is general in nature and students would want to discuss something in a class or on campus only to be vilified for voicing a reasonably fair and tame opinions. How do we expect people to react? They'll seek those they can reach consensus with.

Those students then go home from campus and share it with their moderate parents who shake their heads at the lack of fair discourse.

It's not different to all the non sporty, social justice kids in the 90s who got bullied for not being cool enough. They needed their group to have some kind of identity. They found it in their inner city lefty university community.

Perhaps it's the responsibility of the moderates of both sides to pull the extreme ones in. Yet who would one to risk their own safety against a bunch of loud rabid people occupying campus and being listed for elimination?

Both groups have a lot of underground operations targeting the other side and their personal appearance can be very unassuming. What looks like a kind college student is actually part of a hammer attacker group.

zimbos05 said:

I was kind of understanding you until you implied Kirk made rational points and blamed the left for everything.

You were rational until you said, "the left are the problem and at fault for everything".

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I'd hope you can count at least 10 things Kirk had said at some point as rational. If not then there's really no chance of reaching consensus. This isn't some blood thirsty dictator here. The vast majority of discussions with students were pretty standard. It was the last 5 years where he started going rogue.

Perhaps there are issues worth steering away from and treating separately. That's an issue now where every political matter with loop back into things like racism. It first have any relevance to a lot of things.

zimbos05 said:

As much as you can make that first statement, you can't say make it when the vast majority of the people in those marches are white, and the marches were organised by those with racist ideology behind them.

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Certainly the majority were white. They interviewed plenty of reasonable everyday people who turned up. People with accents who'd moved in the 80s. They weren't concerned with the radicals who also attended. It was essentially two marches.

Wouldn't it be great to have the same breakdown about other marches instead of washing it with 'everyone was peaceful and there for the exact same cause.'

if we don’t follow suit I am more than happy for that place to eat itself alive

JS96 said:

I'd hope you can count at least 10 things Kirk had said at some point as rational. If not then there's really no chance of reaching consensus. This isn't some blood thirsty dictator here. The vast majority of discussions with students were pretty standard. It was the last 5 years where he started going rogue.

Perhaps there are issues worth steering away from and treating separately. That's an issue now where every political matter with loop back into things like racism. It first have any relevance to a lot of things.

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I can't a single thing that Kirk said that was rational. Anyone who reckons what he said was, is kidding themselves. When children are shot and your response is, "it's a worthy price to pay for gun rights" then you have no rationality.

JS96 said:

Certainly the majority were white. They interviewed plenty of reasonable everyday people who turned up. People with accents who'd moved in the 80s. They weren't concerned with the radicals who also attended. It was essentially two marches.

Wouldn't it be great to have the same breakdown about other marches instead of washing it with 'everyone was peaceful and there for the exact same cause.'

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The Neo-Nazis stood at the front, gave speeches and were cheered for it.

The breakdown of the other marches happens every single time. It is literally all the media does. Breakdown these marches, but then will do short brief ones of the anti-migration ones. They litterally issued an arrest for the one person hoisting a Hamas flag. You can't be out here calling for dialogue and seeing eye to eye, then immediately engage in whataboutism.

Author Stephan King now backpedalling about claims against Kirk due to legal professionals saying a defamation case could be on the way. Whether that hold up in court is another thing.

Someone wanted to print Kirk flyers but the worker refused saying it was propaganda. They've been fired and corporate of this big printing chain is in panic mode.

Which group will affect sales more? The left for its boycott of jeans modelled by Sydney Sweeney or the rest of the population of a business with intolerant staff. People vote with their wallets.

Was cat piss anyway but Bud Light is still way down.

I can’t keep up with conservatives. Are the left a bunch of sissy limp wristed soy boys or a bunch of dangerous homicidal maniacs hellbent on terrorism?

They really are going full snowflake.

Amazing that a guy that made a living from saying bad shit about people and starting shit fights is immune from criticism apparently.

zimbos05 said:

I can't a single thing that Kirk said that was rational. Anyone who reckons what he said was, is kidding themselves. When children are shot and your response is, "it's a worthy price to pay for gun rights" then you have no rationality.

The Neo-Nazis stood at the front, gave speeches and were cheered for it.

The breakdown of the other marches happens every single time. It is literally all the media does. Breakdown these marches, but then will do short brief ones of the anti-migration ones. They litterally issued an arrest for the one person hoisting a Hamas flag. You can't be out here calling for dialogue and seeing eye to eye, then immediately engage in whataboutism.

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Well it's all fact checked here and people have decided to make it about kids rather than gun violence in general. I'm sure he had views on how disgraceful school shootings are. I don't think anti gun advocates expect or believe zero gun deaths is achievable but certainly a massive drop is desirable.

The immigration marches have had tonnes of coverage. Who were the Nazism cheered on by? Some supporters while the rest, disgusted, would've left or had already left.

Whataboutism? You mean how nearly every injustice in society needs measuring against what's happening in the ME? An earlier post went from Kirk across the Pacific. I guess they were just examples.

tsf said:

Amazing that a guy that made a living from saying bad shit about people and starting shit fights is immune from criticism apparently.

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You know that's not true. There's plenty of criticism and that's fair enough. The best response is he had views that's didn't sit with everyone and his murder is to be condemned. There are analysts who can do that soundly and respectfully.

What's not right is the celebration of a murder. The same people dancing in the streets would be the first to call the police is someone hit them for their own horrible views. They'll falsely call someone racist then cry. Freedom of consequence, right?

tsf said:

I can’t keep up with conservatives. Are the left a bunch of sissy limp wristed soy boys or a bunch of dangerous homicidal maniacs hellbent on terrorism?

They really are going full snowflake.

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The majority are the former and there's a dangerous minority in the latter. That's for law enforcement to sort. The former tend to scatter when facts get in their way.

I'm all for people having their own ideas but when they give you this lizard eye stare and have these facial muscle jolts you can just see they're not wired right. I'm referring to both sides here. Interviews on campuses after this event and fuck me there are some really odd folk out there.

melbcityguy said:

I think we need to come together and find what we've got in common rather then what makes us different.

It's out of control all this political discourse. You can be a good person if you're right or left

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I think there are still a lot of people who want to find common ground. Unfortunately each side has agitators. I've worked with both who'd come into a decent conversation with other colleagues and just ruin it. Worked with a few blokes where they'd be high fiving after disagreeing saying that's why discussion is important. It was nice to see.

JS96 said:

Fact Check: Charlie Kirk once said some gun deaths 'worth it' in order to have Second Amendment

The Turning Point USA CEO and co-founder made the remarks while answering a question during a TPUSA Faith event in April 2023.

ca.news.yahoo.com

Well it's all fact checked here and people have decided to make it about kids rather than gun violence in general. I'm sure he had views on how disgraceful school shootings are. I don't think anti gun advocates expect or believe zero gun deaths is achievable but certainly a massive drop is desirable.

The immigration marches have had tonnes of coverage. Who were the Nazism cheered on by? Some supporters while the rest, disgusted, would've left or had already left.

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So he did say it in response to a question about a question on a recent shooting? Hence, quoting it and discussing his quote is not wrong.If i'm not mistaken, the recent shooting was a school shooting. Now at no point did I say he used the word kids, but when school shootings are such a prominent thing and the question of gun rights come up around this, and that is his response, the inference is that he is ok with children deaths, so long as no one restricts gun rights. Therefore, eveyryone is allowed to make it about kids. That is one of the main issues, mass school shootings. He was an advocate for gun control. Those arguing for gun control are doing so because of the deaths of school kids. Otherwise, the alternative response is, "school shootings happen far too often. We must protect our gun rights, but we must have stronger and better gun laws to prevent these deaths, whilst preserving the right to own guns for those who are responsible". It's really not hard to be rational as a right wing person. I just did it. You literally live in a country where gun control has been effective.

Whilst you also produced a quote about him being "rational" and "factual", here's another

Kirk did poorly on US fact-checker PolitiFact's scorecard, with 90 per cent of checks rating his claims "mostly false", "false", or "pants on fire"

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Whataboutism? You mean how nearly every injustice in society needs measuring against what's happening in the ME? An earlier post went from Kirk across the Pacific. I guess they were just examples.

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This does not happen, not every injustice. Stop making general claims. But since you bring up the genocide...

JS96 said:

You know that's not true. There's plenty of criticism and that's fair enough. The best response is he had views that's didn't sit with everyone and his murder is to be condemned. There are analysts who can do that soundly and respectfully.

What's not right is the celebration of a murder. The same people dancing in the streets would be the first to call the police is someone hit them for their own horrible views. They'll falsely call someone racist then cry. Freedom of consequence, right?

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It's laughable that the right are trying to be all rational and empathetic, whilst in the same breath having a go at others. I agree with you, condemn murder, but let's not pretend like people from the right are not just as guilty of doing the exact same thing that some on the left are doing in regards to Charlie. I would not celebrate his murder, but when his whole life was built on creating fear and hate towards specific groups, I can understand why those people feel a sense of justice.

JS96 said:

You know that's not true. There's plenty of criticism and that's fair enough. The best response is he had views that's didn't sit with everyone and his murder is to be condemned. There are analysts who can do that soundly and respectfully.

What's not right is the celebration of a murder. The same people dancing in the streets would be the first to call the police is someone hit them for their own horrible views. They'll falsely call someone racist then cry. Freedom of consequence, right?

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All the same people happily celebrated murder of people overseas.

And for me he did make his motza off starting shit

zimbos05 said:

It's laughable that the right are trying to be all rational and empathetic, whilst in the same breath having a go at others. I agree with you, condemn murder, but let's not pretend like people from the right are not just as guilty of doing the exact same thing that some on the left are doing in regards to Charlie. I would not celebrate his murder, but when his whole life was built on creating fear and hate towards specific groups, I can understand why those people feel a sense of justice.

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Fair call

So what's the way forward are we just going to keep yelling at each other for the next fifty years?