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Everyone got the right to vote through legislation. The Constitution gave the right to vote to everyone who could vote under state law until the Parliament made its own laws which it did quite early on. There is no Constitutionally defined right to vote (See S30).

You keep talking about voting, I've not said anything about the right to vote. I simply said that the constitution didn't give Indigenous people any recognition or land rights when it removed that they are not counted.
Under our laws there are some conflicting land titles and rights. These are recognised better now than they were at other times. The example you mentioned was one that shouldn't have happened, but it's not restricted to areas under native title that things get abused. Constitutional recognition (whatever form you think that should take) wouldn't prevent things like that taking place. Even laws don't, they can just say its illegal and outline potential punishments.
The voice would have definitely prevented that. Had it been passed, then the voice would have to be consulted and considered on such action, not just approved by a minister without any recognition or consideration of first nations people.

The special programmes haven't and are unlikely to remove disadvantage. They are however a recognition in law that there is a group of Australians who's ancestors have been here for a long time and also an attempt to address some of the disadvantage.
You keep missing the point. Laws can be changed and removed. Constitution is enshrined. It often happen that when the LNP come in, those programmes go slow, go backwards, or stop, so any progress does not happen, and first nations people's keep getting left behind.
It's an example of what a Parliament could do under the proposed constitutional amendment. All the amendment would have done is create a body called the voice with its "composition, functions, powers and procedures" to be determined by the Parliament. The amendment would not have done any of the things you describe. Perhaps you should go back and read it.

All first nations area voted overwhelmingly for, and you think it would have done nothing. Essentially you are saying, "i don't think it would have done anything, so let's keep doing nothing" I've read the voice multiple times. It was not simply to create a body. It was more than that. I've studied it in detail. I've had to engage in debates about this with other people in public. You keep saying what Sky and the LNP kept saying. I think you need to go back and read it.

Do you think they should have constitutional recognition? Do you think the Uluru statement should be adopted in constitution?
 
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You keep talking about voting, I've not said anything about the right to vote. I simply said that the constitution didn't give Indigenous people any recognition or land rights when it removed that they are not counted.

The voice would have definitely prevented that. Had it been passed, then the voice would have to be consulted and considered on such action, not just approved by a minister without any recognition or consideration of first nations people.


You keep missing the point. Laws can be changed and removed. Constitution is enshrined. It often happen that when the LNP come in, those programmes go slow, go backwards, or stop, so any progress does not happen, and first nations people's keep getting left behind.


All first nations area voted overwhelmingly for, and you think it would have done nothing. Essentially you are saying, "i don't think it would have done anything, so let's keep doing nothing" I've read the voice multiple times. It was not simply to create a body. It was more than that. I've studied it in detail. I've had to engage in debates about this with other people in public. You keep saying what Sky and the LNP kept saying. I think you need to go back and read it.

Do you think they should have constitutional recognition? Do you think the Uluru statement should be adopted in constitution?
You mentioned the right to vote when you stated the 1967 referendum didn't give them the right to vote. That's why I mentioned that they already had the right to vote.

You should read what the proposed new constitutional clause said. It didn't do any of the things you mentioned. If you actually understood what it said rather than what people argued about what it said you would see that it was a poorly drafted amendment that really didn't do anything. It was soundly defeated because of this. All it did was say a body called the voice should exist but the Parliament needed to legislate regarding it's composition, functions, powers and procedures. These could be changed by a Parliament of the future as they saw fit. I gave you an example of how under the proposed amendment the Parliament could render any such body irrelevant if it chose. I have said that the amendment would have done nothing that couldn't have been done without it. Here it is below in full.

1769167984758.png

As to your last statement I don't believe that any specific group should have special mention in the Constitution. I don't think the Uluru statement should be adopted in the constitution. The Constitution outlines how Federal Government works and the relationships between the entities that formed it. That's it. Anything else can be legislated as indeed the Voice could be. I would be in favour of a legislated voice. That appears unlikely in the next few years due to the overreach of trying to place something that doesn't belong in the Constitution within it.
 
You mentioned the right to vote when you stated the 1967 referendum didn't give them the right to vote. That's why I mentioned that they already had the right to vote.
Yes, because the exclusion of certain language didn't enshrine any recognition of Indigenous people and their rights. In saying that, the main ideal was simply to point out how ignored they were. Also, they didn't already have the right to vote. They were excluded until 1965 -and even then, not every state or territory adopted it immediately- and it was only in 1984 that they were required to enrol and to vote which gave them equal voting rights the same as everyone else.

You should read what the proposed new constitutional clause said. It didn't do any of the things you mentioned. If you actually understood what it said rather than what people argued about what it said you would see that it was a poorly drafted amendment that really didn't do anything. It was soundly defeated because of this.
It was soundly defeated because of racism. Simple as that. Most of the people who voted no had no idea about it. Remember the LNP's motto was "if you don't know, vote no". Simply saying, "if you don't understand, don't bother to read up or get the knowledge, stay dumb and vote no". I'm not parroting what people argued. I'm an academic, I'll do research and not just say what they say on tele. I'm bringing forward the information from every peak body, organisation, study, and article that mentions that The Voice was needed. Most importantly, I'm saying what First Nations scholars and experts have said about their voice and what The Voice would have done for them.

All it did was say a body called the voice should exist but the Parliament needed to legislate regarding it's composition, functions, powers and procedures.
A constitution is for the principles, not concept. So whilst you are technically correct, you are ignoring the crux. Whilst parliament could legislate the shape, i.e, it can have 24 members, it can have 15 members, parliament could not determine who those members are or where they came from. Parliament could also not get rid of the voice or disband it. They could also not institute who they wanted and how it was developed. This is the crux. There is a big difference here.

These could be changed by a Parliament of the future as they saw fit. I gave you an example of how under the proposed amendment the Parliament could render any such body irrelevant if it chose. I have said that the amendment would have done nothing that couldn't have been done without it.
This last part has already been disproved in terms of why that is not viable. If we don't need a referendum, then why don't we have recognition of First Nations people in the constitution? Why don't we consult First Nations people on matters pertaining to them. And I don't mean Jacinta Price, I mean actual First Nations people from the communities for whom we make laws and policies.

Here it is below in full.

View attachment 5088
This simplifies the nuances of how the voice would have worked. 87% of First Nations people were for the voice. And some of the remaining 13% were not fully against The Voice, they felt it wasn't enough and wanted Treaty. However, all that matters is that the majority of First Nations people were calling for this and that is what we should respect. It should not be us telling them what they deserve and should get.

The Voice would have been independent, selected by First Nations Peoples, community-led and reflect the diversity of First Nations communities. Our Constitution lacks safeguards for equality. Section 51 -often referred to as 'race power'- of the constitution allows for making laws about and for First Nations people without actually consulting them. It actually permits and enables racially discriminatory legislation. The government has used the 'race power' to enact legislation regarding Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities. However, there’s no requirement that these laws benefit First Nations peoples. The Voice would have changed this.

As to your last statement I don't believe that any specific group should have special mention in the Constitution. I don't think the Uluru statement should be adopted in the constitution. The Constitution outlines how Federal Government works and the relationships between the entities that formed it. That's it. Anything else can be legislated as indeed the Voice could be. I would be in favour of a legislated voice. That appears unlikely in the next few years due to the overreach of trying to place something that doesn't belong in the Constitution within it.
It's not a special group. It's the First people of the land. The people who were colonised, murdered, and systematically attempted to be wiped out. It is the people from whom everything was stolen, and on which we have built our riches. It is the oldest living civilisation, and that we can't even give them a simple thing as acknowledgement is truly a racist mark on this country.

Again, legislation can be chopped and changed, constitution requires referendum. Each of the five previous mechanisms which have been set up by parliamentary processes for the purpose of developing and supporting First Nations people have been abolished by successive governments cancelling programs, policies and investment with the stroke of a pen. The voice could be legislated tomorrow like you say, and you can bet that LNP, One Nation and Katter would whinge and fight it every single day. If it's in the constitution, then they have a responsibility and duty to uphold it. The Uluru Statement literally calls for constitutional recognition. If it should not be adopted, then it means you reject it and we are back to square one of the systemic racism against First Nations people. Rejecting the Uluru Statement, rejects all the work done to get to this document and this point. First Nations people definitely belong in the constitution.
 
Yes, because the exclusion of certain language didn't enshrine any recognition of Indigenous people and their rights. In saying that, the main ideal was simply to point out how ignored they were. Also, they didn't already have the right to vote. They were excluded until 1965 -and even then, not every state or territory adopted it immediately- and it was only in 1984 that they were required to enrol and to vote which gave them equal voting rights the same as everyone else.


It was soundly defeated because of racism. Simple as that. Most of the people who voted no had no idea about it. Remember the LNP's motto was "if you don't know, vote no". Simply saying, "if you don't understand, don't bother to read up or get the knowledge, stay dumb and vote no". I'm not parroting what people argued. I'm an academic, I'll do research and not just say what they say on tele. I'm bringing forward the information from every peak body, organisation, study, and article that mentions that The Voice was needed. Most importantly, I'm saying what First Nations scholars and experts have said about their voice and what The Voice would have done for them.


A constitution is for the principles, not concept. So whilst you are technically correct, you are ignoring the crux. Whilst parliament could legislate the shape, i.e, it can have 24 members, it can have 15 members, parliament could not determine who those members are or where they came from. Parliament could also not get rid of the voice or disband it. They could also not institute who they wanted and how it was developed. This is the crux. There is a big difference here.


This last part has already been disproved in terms of why that is not viable. If we don't need a referendum, then why don't we have recognition of First Nations people in the constitution? Why don't we consult First Nations people on matters pertaining to them. And I don't mean Jacinta Price, I mean actual First Nations people from the communities for whom we make laws and policies.


This simplifies the nuances of how the voice would have worked. 87% of First Nations people were for the voice. And some of the remaining 13% were not fully against The Voice, they felt it wasn't enough and wanted Treaty. However, all that matters is that the majority of First Nations people were calling for this and that is what we should respect. It should not be us telling them what they deserve and should get.

The Voice would have been independent, selected by First Nations Peoples, community-led and reflect the diversity of First Nations communities. Our Constitution lacks safeguards for equality. Section 51 -often referred to as 'race power'- of the constitution allows for making laws about and for First Nations people without actually consulting them. It actually permits and enables racially discriminatory legislation. The government has used the 'race power' to enact legislation regarding Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities. However, there’s no requirement that these laws benefit First Nations peoples. The Voice would have changed this.


It's not a special group. It's the First people of the land. The people who were colonised, murdered, and systematically attempted to be wiped out. It is the people from whom everything was stolen, and on which we have built our riches. It is the oldest living civilisation, and that we can't even give them a simple thing as acknowledgement is truly a racist mark on this country.

Again, legislation can be chopped and changed, constitution requires referendum. Each of the five previous mechanisms which have been set up by parliamentary processes for the purpose of developing and supporting First Nations people have been abolished by successive governments cancelling programs, policies and investment with the stroke of a pen. The voice could be legislated tomorrow like you say, and you can bet that LNP, One Nation and Katter would whinge and fight it every single day. If it's in the constitution, then they have a responsibility and duty to uphold it. The Uluru Statement literally calls for constitutional recognition. If it should not be adopted, then it means you reject it and we are back to square one of the systemic racism against First Nations people. Rejecting the Uluru Statement, rejects all the work done to get to this document and this point. First Nations people definitely belong in the constitution.
Yes we disagree. You continually ignore what the amendment said and instead go on about what it could be. You are wrong on several issues, particularly the one about it being defeated because of racism. You go on about legislation having the ability to be chopped and changed but the amendment (if it got up) required legislation to set up the voice and that legislation could be chopped and changed as well and made redundant. We could go back and forth here for a while but there is no point as neither of us will change each others mind. To be more specific, when you use the racism card I decided there is no point discussing it with you. I'll engage with you on football threads but not here on this issue again.
 
Yes we disagree. You continually ignore what the amendment said and instead go on about what it could be.
I'm not ignoring what it said. I'm providing the extrapolation of the simplification. It's not what it could be, it's what it is.
You are wrong on several issues, particularly the one about it being defeated because of racism.
The whole campaign for no was, "if you don't no, vote no" and "why do First Nations people deserve more rights" or "they don't deserve a special group". All three either a terrible indictment or incorrect, so yes, it is racism.
You go on about legislation having the ability to be chopped and changed but the amendment (if it got up) required legislation to set up the voice and that legislation could be chopped and changed as well and made redundant.
Yes, but it could never be disbanded. First Nations recognition would be enshrined, as of now it's non-existent. The Voice body would be permanent, as of now is non-existent. So it's make up could be changed, but it could never be redundant.
We could go back and forth here for a while but there is no point as neither of us will change each others mind. To be more specific, when you use the racism card I decided there is no point discussing it with you. I'll engage with you on football threads but not here on this issue again.
If we can't have open and honest discussion about racism, then we are fundamentally flawed as a society. To be clear, I am not calling you a racist, but rather that our treatment and opposition to a simple First Nations right such as the voice is inherently racist. This includes me because I too have a responsibility to protect the rights and recognition of First Nations people. It's not a nice thing to have labeled, i know -I too have been labelled a racist- but if we can't have some introspection about the hard topics and always going to quickly say, "nah, i'm not so i refuse to continue this", then we will never progress. It's 2025, and to this day we are still saying to First Nations people, "we don't constitutionally recognise you, nor do we think you deserve enshrined say on matters and laws pertaining to you and your land." Not to mention that we celebrate the day the land was stolen from them.
 
ATSIC was introduced by law by the ALP and abolished by the Coalition under John Howard. Lots of accusations about corruption but IIRC no one was ever convicted even though charges were laid. ATSIC was an advisory body as well.
 
Do you realise that Jewish people have been farming and tilling the said land for 1000 years before jesus and long before islam. They have been invaded by a lot of tribes including the romans, but this is their land
What a stupid comment.
1. If we are going to go on what happened before Jesus' time, lets redraw the whole global map.
2. Jews, muslims and christians live(d) in Palestine. There are plenty of Jews in the Holy Land that consider themselves Palestinian. Palestine is not just for muslims.
 
Yes, but it could never be disbanded. First Nations recognition would be enshrined, as of now it's non-existent. The Voice body would be permanent, as of now is non-existent. So it's make up could be changed, but it could never be redundant.
Ask yourself where the interstate commission as described in section 101 to 104 is. That particular body had even more constitutional protection than proposed voice amendment which left everything to the Parliament.

You seem to be under the delusion that if you opposed the voice you must be a racist.
 
Ask yourself where the interstate commission as described in section 101 to 104 is. That particular body had even more constitutional protection than proposed voice amendment which left everything to the Parliament.

You seem to be under the delusion that if you opposed the voice you must be a racist.
It became the Industry commission, and now the Productivity commission. It's not abolished, it still exists, just in a different format, which when talking about trade makes sense. Trade has evolved and advanced, the commission make up and running evolves with it.

No, not at all. Not everyone opposed to it is racist. Judge the action, not the man. However, there are those who opposed it who are racist. What I find racist is that in this day and age of 2026, we have people saying First Nations people don't deserve recognition, a voice on matters and issues pertaining to them, and the right to constitutional protection. I mean, we still have a debate every year where First Nations people say, "this day means the start of suffering for us" and other people go "we don't care"
 
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It became the Industry commission, and now the Productivity commission. It's not abolished, it still exists, just in a different format, which when talking about trade makes sense. Trade has evolved and advanced, the commission make up and running evolves with it.
It had a specific Constitutional form and hasn't existed in that form for most of the life of the Commonwealth. The voice didn't even have that protection. The protection you think that the proposed amendment gave didn't exist with everything about it to be determined by Parliament.
No, not at all. Not everyone opposed to it is racist. Judge the action, not the man. However, there are those who opposed it who are racist. What I find racist is that in this day and age of 2026, we have people saying First Nations people don't deserve recognition, a voice on matters and issues pertaining to them, and the right to constitutional protection. I mean, we still have a debate every year where First Nations people say, "this day means the start of suffering for us" and other people go "we don't care"
The rest of this paragraph seems to contradict your first two sentences.
 
It had a specific Constitutional form and hasn't existed in that form for most of the life of the Commonwealth. The voice didn't even have that protection. The protection you think that the proposed amendment gave didn't exist with everything about it to be determined by Parliament.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm arguing that the constitution gives the protection for The Voice to exist and for it have a say on all matters pertaining to First Nations people, and that Voice could not be ignored by subsequent government. How can 87% of First Nations people who agree with this and have stipulated it in the Uluru Statement not know what they wanted? Arguing that a trade matter is the same to the voice is a bad comparison. The other argument is that the Voice was to give recognition in the constitution (which they still don't have to this day). The other key aspect is that the argument against was not a proposal for something better but rather, "First Nations people don't deserve this" or that by this winning, "First Nations people become superior with more rights"
The rest of this paragraph seems to contradict your first two sentences.
That would suggest comprehension issues. The paragraph is perfectly coherent. Judge the action. The action that people are doing is racist. If people find that to be a problem and not want to change that, that would then suggest the individual has racist tendencies, and we can start having the conversation about that individual being a racist. So, the viewpoint or the arguments put forward against The Voice were racist inclined, not that everyone who voted No is a racist.
 
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm arguing that the constitution gives thReplye protection for The Voice to exist and for it have a say on all matters pertaining to First Nations people, and that Voice could not be ignored by subsequent government.
I understand what you are saying. I'm saying I disagree with you and have given you the words of the amendment to back up my argument and given you an example of an organisation that had stronger constitutional backing and is ignored.

I think you are the one with comprehension problems as you seem to completely misunderstand a lot of the things I've written. Maybe I'm wrong on that you are just trying to be difficult. You talk about how people voted no for non racist reasons then sprout about how opposition to those things proposed is racist. You can't have it both ways.
 
I understand what you are saying. I'm saying I disagree with you and have given you the words of the amendment to back up my argument and given you an example of an organisation that had stronger constitutional backing and is ignored.

I think you are the one with comprehension problems as you seem to completely misunderstand a lot of the things I've written. Maybe I'm wrong on that you are just trying to be difficult. You talk about how people voted no for non racist reasons then sprout about how opposition to those things proposed is racist. You can't have it both ways.
Then we are going in circles. We are not arguing or disagree on many of the things, but rather the point you keep making is different to what I'm saying. You say that the make up of the body changes. I am saying I agree, but in constitution, it cannot be disbanded.

I've actually addressed specifically the things you said. I'm definitely not trying to be difficult. I never said people voted no for non racist reasons. I said that everyone who voted no isn't a racist. That's two very different distinctions. People who are good natured and good at heart can at times do or say something that is wrong/racist. If they realise, and change, that is their true nature. It is when people become insistent, double down, and continue, then you start to question if they are racist. I also said the arguments being made by the opposition (mostly the media, the LNP, One nation etc) were rooted in racism, therefore making them racist arguments. I'm not having it both ways.
 
It's a bit like the constitution provides for a court to adjudicate industrial disputes. Today it is known as the Fair Work Commission and has had numerous names, personnel, etc. The IPA ran a campaign against it about 30 years ago until they were told that it would require a constitutional amendment when they toned it down and when Howard introduced Workchoices and subsequent election loss they canned their public campaign. AFAIK, Australia is the only country in the world that protects workers constitutionally.
I saw the Voice in the same light. And having worked in the iron ore mines, I can see where the racism comes from. And given that Abbot named himself as Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and made no dint on improving First Nations lives, I see no other option but a constitutional protection because an organisation like ATSIC would be abolished again.
 
It had a specific Constitutional form and hasn't existed in that form for most of the life of the Commonwealth. The voice didn't even have that protection. The protection you think that the proposed amendment gave didn't exist with everything about it to be determined by Parliament.

The rest of this paragraph seems to contradict your first two sentences.
That's what hardcore lefties still don't get a year on from the Voice referendum's defeat.

It didn't get defeated in every state (except for the ACT) because people are racist, it got defeated as people saw it for what it was, a minority of the population getting special treatment over the rest of the population and just another layer of bureaucracy to government that is not needed.
 
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