The Western United Thread

[Sutherlandbear]

Weve had this argument before lets not rehash it bc its gotten tiresome for most, you and me included id think!

What was wrong with tonights crowd exactly? Playing against foreign opposition with zero support of their own you had a very decent turnout and some superb football? Is it not similar to what we see in other cup competitions aroudn the globe? I was there tonight and the atmosphere was fantastic, even some MV ppl next to us couldnt deny it!

I think our perception of football is perhaps different, football for me means these types of games, these types of stadiums that should require inly some modernisation, with history and passion... correct me if im wrong for you it means an afl nrl style specticle.. very different to the eay you feel about Rangers i assume( again correct me if im wrong)

I think that OV is perfectly fine for NPL level, but not top league football. That was POSSIBLY Heidelbergs biggest occasion since about 1980 ( I may be wrong ) but that place should have been rammed and folk potentially turned away. I Will never compare football to the other codes due to difference in finance and media exposure.
Fuck I want to see football played at a semi decent level with nice stadia and large attendance’s, no matter who is playing. The benchmark should be Adelaide United.

 

[southmelb]

I'd be very surprised if tonights crowd wasnt easily bigger than sydney fc v Auckland last weekend. Considering the opposition had no supporters it was a solid turnout, OV is a very big ground.

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

I think that OV is perfectly fine for NPL level, but not top league football.

100%

That was POSSIBLY Heidelbergs biggest occasion since about 1980 ( I may be wrong ) but that place should have been rammed and folk potentially turned away.

I believe the final will show the true potential of the club and be the indicator as to where they truly are and can be! Hard to judge a club that has been stuck in local football for so many years ( they have proven that they can pull high crowds also as they did against City!) Which is why i say the final will show provide clearer evidence.

I Will never compare football to the other codes due to difference in finance and media exposure.

The problem is we got here by constantly comparing it though even if you dont!

Fuck I want to see football played at a semi decent level with nice stadia and large attendance’s, no matter who is playing. The benchmark should be Adelaide United.

We agree here but with one slight tweak, I think Adelaide utd should be the benchmark for aleague clubs, we need to set a realistic benchmark that NST clubs can reach first and then grow to the adelaide mark if that makes sense..SMFC is the closest to being able to fulfil those criteria or atleast ever was!

 

[Midfielder]

Noted as i do most ppl's passion (incl yours) in this forum, but i do disagree here.. the league dying wasnt the end of football before nor would it be if it happened again.. if we can utilise that death to get to where we need to be that is!

I agree, butnits inly partially successful for every actual succesful franshise there is a defunct one or one in strife! The balance doesnt show success as it didnt in the NSL.

100% but to do this and maintain exclusion is not possible!

But why will it lose fans? Fans have gone in reverse in the AL have they not season after season now reaching a point of only true fans reamining for most clubs? New franchises have failed to gain crowds at all, the mainstream dream is dead as it was envisioned bc ppl from other codes dont care to move over... wouldnt bridging the divide bring back football fans that now dont interact with the AL and that be a positive?

Some months back I saw a table I can create myself or so could anyone.

Hang with me my comment is more towards the end.

What the chart showed was the key population areas in Australia.

The chart then showed how many professional teams each population centre had.

Consider, we have 18 soon to be 20 rugby league teams, 18 soon to be 19 AFL teams , Basketball 10 male teams, 4 Super Rugby teams, 6 Big Bash teams,

That's 56 soon to be 59 male teams.

Add V8's, 8 Netball teams.

Football has if you add netball and the V8's has at least 65 teams to compete with.

Add the football teams and you have lets say 80 professional teams with a population of 27 million. Beyond this for the most part other than Basketball all the other sports get far better media coverage.

The above has ignored fringe sports like surfing, BMX, Skate Boards, golf, tennis, hockey etc.

The chart then divided the population centres by the number of professional teams....

A second chart was produced using a percentage of the population centres and their sports viewing habits, from those who watch lots of sports across various codes and those that don't watch sport at all and those that only watch big events i.e. Sate of Origin, World Cup Qualifiers, grand finals and so on.

The percentage they used was 41 percent of the population watch sport very few watch all sports and there was another say 20 percent who watched sport sometimes.

The rest where from never to very rarely.

By any standards 80 professional teams in such a small population base limit what can be achieved.

Football in Australia needs to build a strong support base to achieve what you want and that needs what we currently have now to be developed not trashed and start again. Football needs to grow at all levels as with 80 professional teams not counting Olympic sports, nor golf, tennis, national cricket sides competition for sponsors, government support, media space etc is full on.

Killing off the A-L is madness.... Developing and expanding the A-L is how to grow Football in Australia.

 

[southmelb]

Which is why i say the final will show provide clearer evidence.

Feel like they will get a lot of neutrals for the final, tonight i think they absolutely exhausted the local greek contingent of the northern suburbs, saw faces i hadnt seen for a decade.

 

[0x3mp1r3]

I think that OV is perfectly fine for NPL level, but not top league football. That was POSSIBLY Heidelbergs biggest occasion since about 1980 ( I may be wrong ) but that place should have been rammed and folk potentially turned away. I Will never compare football to the other codes due to difference in finance and media exposure.
Fuck I want to see football played at a semi decent level with nice stadia and large attendance’s, no matter who is playing. The benchmark should be Adelaide United.

Honestly I believe this metric is useless. I hear constantly that the main reason why people don’t want P & R or NPL teams in top flights being due to their lack of crowds…

Firstly, I believe their crowds would actually grow if these clubs weren’t “dead ends” with a capped growth ceiling due to there being no natural avenue to rise up the pyramid into the national top tier.

Secondly, look at the attendances of leagues in Europe that are even more football mad than us, crowd figures are not a pre-requisite for promotion or access to the top tier. It’s purely sporting merit.

Scottish Prem - only 6/12 clubs average more than 10,000 per game. With Dundee (7k), St Mirren (6.9k), Kilmarnock (6.3k), Motherwell (5.6k), st Johnstone (5.6k), Ross county (4.3k)

Portuguese 1st division - only 5/18 clubs average more than 10,000. With Boavista (7.2k), Farense (7.1k), Gil Vicente (5.4K), with the remaining 10 clubs ranging from (3.8k - 1.9k)

Belgium first division - only 7/16 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 9 clubs averaging between (7k - 2.9k)

Croatian first division - only 2/10 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 8 clubs averaging between (5.3k - 1.5k)

Greek first division - only 4/14 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 10 clubs averaging between (7.9k - 1.1k)

Majority of the leagues across Europe and globally paint a very similar picture. Bar the top 4 leagues in Europe + MLS + top S/A leagues.

we have nowhere near the quality of those top leagues, so comparing us to them is pointless, which is why I’m comparing us to mid-tier European leagues (outside top 4).

I think we need to get over this whole crowd figure hysteria. It’s actually holding the game back here as a pointless metric.

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

Some months back I saw a table I can create myself or so could anyone.

Hang with me my comment is more towards the end.

What the chart showed was the key population areas in Australia.

The chart then showed how many professional teams each population centre had.

Consider, we have 18 soon to be 20 rugby league teams, 18 soon to be 19 AFL teams , Basketball 10 male teams, 4 Super Rugby teams, 6 Big Bash teams,

That's 56 soon to be 59 male teams.

Add V8's, 8 Netball teams.

Football has if you add netball and the V8's has at least 65 teams to compete with.

Add the football teams and you have lets say 80 professional teams with a population of 27 million. Beyond this for the most part other than Basketball all the other sports get far better media coverage.

The above has ignored fringe sports like surfing, BMX, Skate Boards, golf, tennis, hockey etc.

The chart then divided the population centres by the number of professional teams....

A second chart was produced using a percentage of the population centres and their sports viewing habits, from those who watch lots of sports across various codes and those that don't watch sport at all and those that only watch big events i.e. Sate of Origin, World Cup Qualifiers, grand finals and so on.

The percentage they used was 41 percent of the population watch sport very few watch all sports and there was another say 20 percent who watched sport sometimes.

The rest where from never to very rarely.

By any standards 80 professional teams in such a small population base limit what can be achieved.

Football in Australia needs to build a strong support base to achieve what you want and that needs what we currently have now to be developed not trashed and start again. Football needs to grow at all levels as with 80 professional teams not counting Olympic sports, nor golf, tennis, national cricket sides competition for sponsors, government support, media space etc is full on.

Killing off the A-L is madness.... Developing and expanding the A-L is how to grow Football in Australia.

I dont disagree on the saturation or the metrics but from those very metrics above AL has zero room to grow unless you grow from existing support bases which is what we have said...why then create a WU? Why the need for heart/city originally and not SMFC, outside of the foregin ownership keeping it alive, there is nothing to indicate its a bigger success than we wouldve been!

SMFC is an existint support base which lost some support to MV or city later (that which yes may return to the detriment of those franchises) but many that are just lost to the AL altogether, like myself, and others to other codes bc of the AL...

Here is the confusion, deathtothebAL is easily bypassed by the creation of second tier and not by beijg its enemy (APL) You want to keep the aleague? We dont care, what we argue time and time again is that the championship now is the way to grow football.. no more expansion to aleague unless it comes via that comp, you have new markets to develop canberra Tassie etc fine, it happens via second tier to strengthen both that league and the game overall and its promotion via merrit, including & along with My club as with other traditional clubs that have long shown the ambition, drive and right to be there! All new step up comes from there, cant be precious about AL anymore p&r will add excitement across the game and remove that existing complacenecy of the bottom half of the AL and add ambition to the rest.. then you have 2 sets of playoffs and atleastb1 setbof relegation matches that automatically breathe new life!

How is that not growing football, or should we stick to the provenfailed and faling artificially model? New rivalries and by extension interest will only be created by utilising the existing qll else is doomed!

 

[BA81]

We have nowhere near the quality of those top leagues, so comparing us to them is pointless, which is why I’m comparing us to mid-tier European leagues (outside top 4).
I think we need to get over this whole crowd figure hysteria. It’s actually holding the game back here as a pointless metric.

The AFL/NRL/EPL-obsessed suits running the game here could never, alas. They must be turfed out and replaced by dyed-in-wool ️ people, ASAP

 

[BA81]

Killing off the A-L is madness.... Developing and expanding the A-L is how to grow Football in Australia.

W/respect mate, methinks you’re reading into it way too literally. No-one within ️ is advocating the destruction of our current national league per se, but rather of the manner in which it was founded to function and has done so ever since@ the blatant expense of the game’s ecosystem below it.

The closed-shop cartel format of the league is what we seek to rightly destroy, not the league in and of itself.

 

[Sutherlandbear]

Honestly I believe this metric is useless. I hear constantly that the main reason why people don’t want P & R or NPL teams in top flights being due to their lack of crowds…

Firstly, I believe their crowds would actually grow if these clubs weren’t “dead ends” with a capped growth ceiling due to there being no natural avenue to rise up the pyramid into the national top tier.

Secondly, look at the attendances of leagues in Europe that are even more football mad than us, crowd figures are not a pre-requisite for promotion or access to the top tier. It’s purely sporting merit.

Scottish Prem - only 6/12 clubs average more than 10,000 per game. With Dundee (7k), St Mirren (6.9k), Kilmarnock (6.3k), Motherwell (5.6k), st Johnstone (5.6k), Ross county (4.3k)

Portuguese 1st division - only 5/18 clubs average more than 10,000. With Boavista (7.2k), Farense (7.1k), Gil Vicente (5.4K), with the remaining 10 clubs ranging from (3.8k - 1.9k)

Belgium first division - only 7/16 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 9 clubs averaging between (7k - 2.9k)

Croatian first division - only 2/10 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 8 clubs averaging between (5.3k - 1.5k)

Greek first division - only 4/14 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 10 clubs averaging between (7.9k - 1.1k)

Majority of the leagues across Europe and globally paint a very similar picture. Bar the top 4 leagues in Europe + MLS + top S/A leagues.

we have nowhere near the quality of those top leagues, so comparing us to them is pointless, which is why I’m comparing us to mid-tier European leagues (outside top 4).

I think we need to get over this whole crowd figure hysteria. It’s actually holding the game back here as a pointless metric.

Scotland only has a population the same size as Victoria.

 

[libelous]

Some months back I saw a table I can create myself or so could anyone.

Hang with me my comment is more towards the end.

What the chart showed was the key population areas in Australia.

The chart then showed how many professional teams each population centre had.

Consider, we have 18 soon to be 20 rugby league teams, 18 soon to be 19 AFL teams , Basketball 10 male teams, 4 Super Rugby teams, 6 Big Bash teams,

That's 56 soon to be 59 male teams.

Add V8's, 8 Netball teams.

Football has if you add netball and the V8's has at least 65 teams to compete with.

Add the football teams and you have lets say 80 professional teams with a population of 27 million. Beyond this for the most part other than Basketball all the other sports get far better media coverage.

The above has ignored fringe sports like surfing, BMX, Skate Boards, golf, tennis, hockey etc.

The chart then divided the population centres by the number of professional teams....

A second chart was produced using a percentage of the population centres and their sports viewing habits, from those who watch lots of sports across various codes and those that don't watch sport at all and those that only watch big events i.e. Sate of Origin, World Cup Qualifiers, grand finals and so on.

The percentage they used was 41 percent of the population watch sport very few watch all sports and there was another say 20 percent who watched sport sometimes.

The rest where from never to very rarely.

By any standards 80 professional teams in such a small population base limit what can be achieved.

Football in Australia needs to build a strong support base to achieve what you want and that needs what we currently have now to be developed not trashed and start again. Football needs to grow at all levels as with 80 professional teams not counting Olympic sports, nor golf, tennis, national cricket sides competition for sponsors, government support, media space etc is full on.

Killing off the A-L is madness.... Developing and expanding the A-L is how to grow Football in Australia.

I disagree, developing all leagues, especially the NPL, is how you grow football in Australia and build the pyramid.
My opinion is that the A league is at a maximum level and, hopefully, the Championship will show what can be achieved by broadening our thinking.

 

[0x3mp1r3]

A

Scotland only has a population the same size as Victoria.

and your point ?

I’m sure the town where Motherwell is located would be similar in population to the town of Heidelberg for example.

Why does the population of an entire country have to effect individual teams from individual suburbs/towns

 

[Sutherlandbear]

A

and your point ?

I’m sure the town where Motherwell is located would be similar in population to the town of Heidelberg for example.

Why does the population of an entire country have to effect individual teams from individual suburbs/towns

My point was, compare apples to apples. FWIW, more people in Scotland go to watch football matches than anywhere else in Europe.( PHOC)

And Heidelberg is a part of Melbourne, Motherwell is a rural area, not connected to a city.

 

[Football us life]

Honestly I believe this metric is useless. I hear constantly that the main reason why people don’t want P & R or NPL teams in top flights being due to their lack of crowds…

Firstly, I believe their crowds would actually grow if these clubs weren’t “dead ends” with a capped growth ceiling due to there being no natural avenue to rise up the pyramid into the national top tier.

Secondly, look at the attendances of leagues in Europe that are even more football mad than us, crowd figures are not a pre-requisite for promotion or access to the top tier. It’s purely sporting merit.

Scottish Prem - only 6/12 clubs average more than 10,000 per game. With Dundee (7k), St Mirren (6.9k), Kilmarnock (6.3k), Motherwell (5.6k), st Johnstone (5.6k), Ross county (4.3k)

Portuguese 1st division - only 5/18 clubs average more than 10,000. With Boavista (7.2k), Farense (7.1k), Gil Vicente (5.4K), with the remaining 10 clubs ranging from (3.8k - 1.9k)

Belgium first division - only 7/16 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 9 clubs averaging between (7k - 2.9k)

Croatian first division - only 2/10 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 8 clubs averaging between (5.3k - 1.5k)

Greek first division - only 4/14 clubs average more than 10,000. With the remaining 10 clubs averaging between (7.9k - 1.1k)

Majority of the leagues across Europe and globally paint a very similar picture. Bar the top 4 leagues in Europe + MLS + top S/A leagues.

we have nowhere near the quality of those top leagues, so comparing us to them is pointless, which is why I’m comparing us to mid-tier European leagues (outside top 4).

I think we need to get over this whole crowd figure hysteria. It’s actually holding the game back here as a pointless metric.

Good post

Crowd figures are a pointless metric if a club or competition is well funded from other sources such as TV rights, sponsorship and ownerships.

I think one of the reasons why in Australia we might overly obsess about them is when there's a situation like Brisbane Roar playing in front of 5 or 6K in a 50K stadium.

It's about optics and Brisbane Roar games look horribly under subscribed

But thankfully most of the other A League clubs play in medium sized stadiums so generally speaking the crowd doesn't look too bad in most cases.

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

Good post

Crowd figures are a pointless metric if a club or competition is well funded from other sources such as TV rights, sponsorship and ownerships.

I think one of the reasons why in Australia we might overly obsess about them is when there's a situation like Brisbane Roar playing in front of 5 or 6K in a 50K stadium.

It's about optics and Brisbane Roar games look horribly under subscribed

But thankfully most of the other A League clubs play in medium sized stadiums so generally speaking the crowd doesn't look too bad in most cases.

Yes optics definitely plays its part also, another failure when they still persist with massive stadiums even when more suited and visually appealing options are available!

 

[NoMates]

Good post

Crowd figures are a pointless metric if a club or competition is well funded from other sources such as TV rights, sponsorship and ownerships.

I think one of the reasons why in Australia we might overly obsess about them is when there's a situation like Brisbane Roar playing in front of 5 or 6K in a 50K stadium.

It's about optics and Brisbane Roar games look horribly under subscribed

But thankfully most of the other A League clubs play in medium sized stadiums so generally speaking the crowd doesn't look too bad in most cases.

Crowds are needed to fund the club, its really there only income to cover cost as the TV revenue is to pay players only. A club cant survive on 3k crowds. Thats why they need 8-10k crowds to cover cost. So what you say is redundant.

 

[Football us life]

My point was, compare apples to apples. FWIW, more people in Scotland go to watch football matches than anywhere else in Europe.( PHOC)

And Heidelberg is a part of Melbourne, Motherwell is a rural area, not connected to a city.

I agree... I'm not a fan of comparing football in Australia to football in a country like Scotland in terms of interest. It's two completely different scenarios.

Football is a huge part of the Scottish sporting culture and a huge part of daily life and 10 pages of football coverage in the Daily Record or The Herald every day is testament to that.

And it's the reason why football garnishes such huge relative support from the Scottish public. It's massively ingrained into the cultural psyche...

Consider the fact that football in Australia is further down the pecking order and isnt front and centre of everything and everywhere it doesn’t do too badly.

 

[Football us life]

Crowds are needed to fund the club, its really there only income to cover cost as the TV revenue is to pay players only. A club cant survive on 3k crowds. Thats why they need 8-10k crowds to cover cost. So what you say is redundant.

But the average A League crowds are around what 8 or 9K?

Okay I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong because I dont follow the crowd figures that closely. Usually just the match scores....

 

[Football us life]

Yes optics definitely plays its part also, another failure when they still persist with massive stadiums even when more suited and visually appealing options are available!

Agree with you somewhat on the usage of smaller stadiums. But unfortunately some don't have much choice. Like the Brisbane Roar.

 

[Midfielder]

In simple terms we all want what's good for Football.

We all want at some point in time more of a Football model than we have now.

First it needs to be clear since 1955 we apart from a couple of years have never had P n R at the most senior level I.e.NSL, A-L.

That aside it's where we all wants go.

Where we disagree is the best method to get there.

For me the starting point is for professional Football in Australia to be respected. The competition from external sources i.e. European league's and locally AFL n NRL, is extensive

For me the respect we need in an Australian context would come from an improved A-L not the current based NPL Clubs.

I understand you see it differently, but it's important to understand we both see the same problems but have different solutions.... What's needed for whatever path is chosen that we support all levels from park thu to the national teams