Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

Sign Up Now!

Was the nationality ban on Aussie clubs necessary to build our future?

RIMB

Fan Favourite
Joined
Oct 17, 2024
Replies
1,410
Thinking about South Melbourne Hellas being talked about for inclusion in the aleagues I had an idle thought.

At the time of the NSL, the game of soccer was viewed largely as 'wogball' and an ethnic sport by many - despite it actually being such a popular sport in the country.

On the face of it it seemed to be a competition that pitted Italy against Greece against Croatia against the Dutch and so on with a few skips thrown in. I know that was not the case, and it was a representation of pride, belonging and community for each of those teams and their supporters - but I also know that the mainstream Australian view was that the clubs represented each individual country and not 'just' its community.

I think that mainstream view of football has changed with the aleague, the Socceroos in the World Cups, and the Tillies getting the exposure and following they now have. The 'wogball' view is more now a considered insult by those who harbour a hatred or ignorance of the game rather than a description of the game itself. I would not be surprised if young people asked why the game was even called wogball.

Is it possible that the break up of the NSL on nationality grounds was necessary and beneficial in the long run to football's growth and acceptance here and we can put that behind us now and move on?

Migrant clubs were the strength and foundation of the sport in this country. The aleague excluded that at the national level and enabled/allowed the growth of artificial Australian clubs in its place. Those clubs, or their vanilla equivalents, may never have seen the light of day or broken through the perceived multinational barriers of the existing NSL competition to gain visibility on the big stage.

Without any actual evidence or numbers to support my view, the crowds who come to games now are not just tied to the ethnicity of the original migrant clubs that forged the sport here. It is largely considered a normal sport now and even as entertainment in its own right by some who might be planning a night out.

Maybe it did not have to be 20 years of aleague, but did that enforced block and plastic franchise system actually allow more of mainstream Australia to view the sport on its merits - to the extent that today we could find a way to open the doors to any club, with its pride and supporters, and not feel like we were seeing just an ethnic game.

I think Australia has changed enough in its multinational view to now have an open football competition with both aleagues teams and everyone else - and I am not sure that could have happened without first ostracising the 'migrant' part of the sport in order to create, at least artificially, a level playing field for the vanilla side of Australia to feel a part of it.

As the Australia Cup proves more and more popular each year I like to think we are seeing a clear and obvious weakening of resistance to the game in general and it stepping closer to its World Game label in our country.

Could we be here without having passed through fire?
 
Well for one it’s my firm belief that the number of ‘skips’&other traditionally-⚽️-disinterested demographics in this country who do like the game will always be outnumbered by those who don’t 1000 - let’s say maybe 500 if I’m being super generous - to one. And those haters will always shift the argument goalposts no matter what; if they can’t exploit the ‘wogball’ angle like they used to, they’ll use something else instead.

Basically, I say once&for all forget about converting ‘mainstream 🇦🇺‘ to ⚽️. We as a sport don’t need it(arguably never did) and it’s just not fcken worth it IMHO.
 
I like national identity on clubs. It's something awesomely unique to Aus sporting landscape.

But there is an elephant in the room that should be addressed.

This is not an a-league v NSL etc thing, but there is a truth we should face that there are still issues.

For example, on any weekend, from state league to NPL, there are (this will be a little hyperbolic) military type planning to segregate fans from certain fixtures. Very strict protocol for entry etc. They are completely not allowed to mingle.

Now I know there has been bad behaviour at a-league, but for what it's worth there is no segregation. Sure, you can buy away tickets and there are sections but you can sit where you want at all games basically.

I think it's something that needs to be addressed. Let's face it, if Heidelberg are playing preston, or BWE V sydney United if anyone could sit anywhere I doubt it's all going without problems. Clubs I am involved in have same problem

In summary, I don't think it's a major issue, but it's still there and needs to be faced. Clubs shoudld educate fans so they don't have it hanging over our heads. take the chip off our shoulders and celebrate the diversity/stories of the game
 
Thinking about South Melbourne Hellas being talked about for inclusion in the aleagues I had an idle thought.

At the time of the NSL, the game of soccer was viewed largely as 'wogball' and an ethnic sport by many - despite it actually being such a popular sport in the country.

On the face of it it seemed to be a competition that pitted Italy against Greece against Croatia against the Dutch and so on with a few skips thrown in. I know that was not the case, and it was a representation of pride, belonging and community for each of those teams and their supporters - but I also know that the mainstream Australian view was that the clubs represented each individual country and not 'just' its community.

I think that mainstream view of football has changed with the aleague, the Socceroos in the World Cups, and the Tillies getting the exposure and following they now have. The 'wogball' view is more now a considered insult by those who harbour a hatred or ignorance of the game rather than a description of the game itself. I would not be surprised if young people asked why the game was even called wogball.

Is it possible that the break up of the NSL on nationality grounds was necessary and beneficial in the long run to football's growth and acceptance here and we can put that behind us now and move on?

Migrant clubs were the strength and foundation of the sport in this country. The aleague excluded that at the national level and enabled/allowed the growth of artificial Australian clubs in its place. Those clubs, or their vanilla equivalents, may never have seen the light of day or broken through the perceived multinational barriers of the existing NSL competition to gain visibility on the big stage.

Without any actual evidence or numbers to support my view, the crowds who come to games now are not just tied to the ethnicity of the original migrant clubs that forged the sport here. It is largely considered a normal sport now and even as entertainment in its own right by some who might be planning a night out.

Maybe it did not have to be 20 years of aleague, but did that enforced block and plastic franchise system actually allow more of mainstream Australia to view the sport on its merits - to the extent that today we could find a way to open the doors to any club, with its pride and supporters, and not feel like we were seeing just an ethnic game.

I think Australia has changed enough in its multinational view to now have an open football competition with both aleagues teams and everyone else - and I am not sure that could have happened without first ostracising the 'migrant' part of the sport in order to create, at least artificially, a level playing field for the vanilla side of Australia to feel a part of it.

As the Australia Cup proves more and more popular each year I like to think we are seeing a clear and obvious weakening of resistance to the game in general and it stepping closer to its World Game label in our country.

Could we be here without having passed through fire?
Sorry mate, the juice is NOT worth the squeeze, it never has been with Soccer being a 3rd tier sport here... Wogs or Skips., the game will always be un-Australian.. 70-80 years of racism doesn't disappear overnight.

I wanted to comment on the latest G and G podcast thread but couldn't find to draw parallels to your post above... Even a young bloke like Alex P (not having a go Alex) who in his own words would JUMP at a call up from the Italian national football squad, agrees with APL that any "effnikz" flavour in a football club is problematic... 20 years of these clubs being vilified and STILL the narrative perpetuated by Frank Lowy for his and his mates financial gain is being thrown around by people who SHOULD know better....

If there ever was a serious desire by ANYONE in this country for soccer to be for all of the country, then who, what or where a club represents should become irrelevant. WE ARE ALL AUSSIES.
 
I like national identity on clubs. It's something awesomely unique to Aus sporting landscape.

But there is an elephant in the room that should be addressed.

This is not an a-league v NSL etc thing, but there is a truth we should face that there are still issues.

For example, on any weekend, from state league to NPL, there are (this will be a little hyperbolic) military type planning to segregate fans from certain fixtures. Very strict protocol for entry etc. They are completely not allowed to mingle.

Now I know there has been bad behaviour at a-league, but for what it's worth there is no segregation. Sure, you can buy away tickets and there are sections but you can sit where you want at all games basically.

I think it's something that needs to be addressed. Let's face it, if Heidelberg are playing preston, or BWE V sydney United if anyone could sit anywhere I doubt it's all going without problems. Clubs I am involved in have same problem

In summary, I don't think it's a major issue, but it's still there and needs to be faced. Clubs shoudld educate fans so they don't have it hanging over our heads. take the chip off our shoulders and celebrate the diversity/stories of the game
WHY? Fan segregation happens pretty much in every single league around the world... Its what Aleague promotes on their marketing campaigns with active bays, flares, tifos and whatever.... What is the difference between separating WSW and Sydney FC and separating Preston and Heidelberg fans?.
 
What is the difference between separating WSW and Sydney FC and separating Preston and Heidelberg fans?.

Do they though? As an MV fan I can get a ticket anywhere in a stadium at any ground (except for when Vics were banned from SA lol)

Also, segregating based on race is a whole different kettle of fish, no?
 
Sorry mate, the juice is NOT worth the squeeze, it never has been with Soccer being a 3rd tier sport here... Wogs or Skips., the game will always be un-Australian.. 70-80 years of racism doesn't disappear overnight.

I wanted to comment on the latest G and G podcast thread but couldn't find to draw parallels to your post above... Even a young bloke like Alex P (not having a go Alex) who in his own words would JUMP at a call up from the Italian national football squad, agrees with APL that any "effnikz" flavour in a football club is problematic... 20 years of these clubs being vilified and STILL the narrative perpetuated by Frank Lowy for his and his mates financial gain is being thrown around by people who SHOULD know better....

If there ever was a serious desire by ANYONE in this country for soccer to be for all of the country, then who, what or where a club represents should become irrelevant. WE ARE ALL AUSSIES.
Bummer.

That's all I can say.

My anglo vision suggests there is more acceptance of the game in general but I am hardly working at the coal face.
 
Do they though? As an MV fan I can get a ticket anywhere in a stadium at any ground (except for when Vics were banned from SA lol)

Also, segregating based on race is a whole different kettle of fish, no?
As a South Melbourne fan I can buy a ticket to any ground and SIT anywhere I like too (apart from Preston this year because Football VIC are retards)

And can I ask WHO is segregating by race? Isnt it by club affiliation... I have NEVER been asked for my ID or birth certificate in any soccer game I have attended here?
 
And btw, I am not arguing against segregating. I am saying our head is in the sand if we don't acknowledge there is still a race issue.
I know you are mate, and I get were you are coming from but this whole race thing is getting pretty tired... I acknowledge there are some... umm "fanbases" that are problematic but it fucks it up for the 99% who aren't...
 
Bummer.

That's all I can say.

My anglo vision suggests there is more acceptance of the game in general but I am hardly working at the coal face.
Fuck this "anglo vision" you're a Brisbane Roar supporter mate... wear it with pride..... Who gives a shit if your club has Dutch roots, Im sure you don't, you just love it because its your club yeah?
 
As a South Melbourne fan I can buy a ticket to any ground and SIT anywhere I like too (apart from Preston this year because Football VIC are retards)

And can I ask WHO is segregating by race? Isnt it by club affiliation... I have NEVER been asked for my ID or birth certificate in any soccer game I have attended here?

I actually think there is probably less of an issue with Hellas. Heidelberg seem to be very angry against preston still lol

But the reality is, at games on VPL, Albanians and serbs are not allowed to be next to each other, and obviously been at preston games too.

The second point maybe generalised but someone is making a call on not letting certain nationalities mingle. And IMO, there still is a issue with certain small pockets.

As I said I don't think it's big, but on face value, it's not a great look
 
I actually think there is probably less of an issue with Hellas. Heidelberg seem to be very angry against preston still lol

But the reality is, at games on VPL, Albanians and serbs are not allowed to be next to each other, and obviously been at preston games too.

The second point maybe generalised but someone is making a call on not letting certain nationalities mingle. And IMO, there still is a issue with certain small pockets.

As I said I don't think it's big, but on face value, it's not a great look
HAHAAH Heidelberg fans probably hate Hellas fans more than Preston these days..... hahahaha
 
  • Haha
Reactions: tsf
WHY? Fan segregation happens pretty much in every single league around the world... Its what Aleague promotes on their marketing campaigns with active bays, flares, tifos and whatever.... What is the difference between separating WSW and Sydney FC and separating Preston and Heidelberg fans?
Exactly - plus in the supposedly-squeaky-clean AFL, make no mistake: if the Carlton and Collingwood cheer-squads were sat right next to each other..it’d be a very naïve soul to insist that there’d be no unsightly trouble ensuing whatsoever💡
 
Fuck this "anglo vision" you're a Brisbane Roar supporter mate... wear it with pride..... Who gives a shit if your club has Dutch roots, Im sure you don't, you just love it because its your club yeah?
Totally right Mono - but I am talking about the people I see around me at games. Looks pretty all inclusive up here.

But I may be oblivious to undercurrents - that is my anglo vision.
 
The most interesting thing about football in Australia from my point of view is the history and culture of it's clubs...

As tsf says national identity clubs are unique to Australia, or almost unique. I think Canadian soccer is another where there is quite a lot of ethnic identity clubs such as Edmonton Scottish, Montreal Ukrainians, Hamilton Croatia, Hamilton White Eagles, London Marconi to name a few...
 
Totally right Mono - but I am talking about the people I see around me at games. Looks pretty all inclusive up here.

But I may be oblivious to undercurrents - that is my anglo vision.
Thats great mate, looking around me at the people i see at games it looks pretty inclusive down here too :)
 
The most interesting thing about football in Australia from my point of view is the history and culture of it's clubs...

As tsf says national identity clubs are unique to Australia, or almost unique. I think Canadian soccer is another where there is quite a lot of ethnic identity clubs such as Edmonton Scottish, Montreal Ukrainians, Hamilton Croatia, Hamilton White Eagles, London Marconi to name a few...

Its NOT as Unique as you think,, Chile's top flight is riddled with a mixture.





Its gonna take far to much time to go through ALL the other top flight, migrant founded clubs around the world.

The ONLY way we are unique is the complete hatred some people have towards these clubs...everywhere else in the world celebrates multiculturalism here we despise it in football yet love it in restaurants?... go figure.
 
question I'm obsessed with since it is in the background as a support plank in the structure of arguments against p&r in Australia. The argument goes like this

1. Broadbased entities get bigger crowds than those started by migrant communities
2. Changing traditional clubs started by non anglo migrant communities into broadbased clubs fails to draw a bigger crowd
3. From 1 and 2 the only solution is new franchises that start in the top league
4. Franchises cannot survive relegation
5. Franchises cannot thrive in a league where there are also clubs associated with a single ethnicity
6. From 3-5 you cannot have large crowds coexist with P&R since the majority of clubs in lower divisions have history associated with a non anglo migrant community

It's not the most moral argument, it wouldn't be accepted in any other industry on moral grounds even if the pragmatic case is correct. However, it has convinced people who reject xenophobic expedience on moral grounds. Joe Gorman appears to have walked away from the game after concluding that Australia's too racist for football to be its multicultural self. It also ignores some big tradeoffs - traditional clubs do more for youth development than franchises. I believe the academies only exist today because they are forced to have them and they only go down to u13s (someone correct me if I'm wrong). They also don't have a nyl unless forced I believe? Having said that some of these premises are shaky

1 appears true but flattens some nuance. Plenty of franchises have had small crowds then died, franchises have tended to have their crowds shrink over time and the occasional traditional club can get big crowds. Having said that, the clubs that have gotten the biggest crowd averages are definitely dominated by franchises.

2. Is clearly true. To quote Joe Gorman - no club has done more to appeal to a broad base than Sydney Hakoah and it didn't make any difference

3. This therefore follows, there clearly is a market for broad based franchises that have had no historical connection to grassroots. I think it makes sense to still invite franchises to go straight into the top division even after p&r is introduced as much as people hate it

4. Is shaky. Historically, we have only had 6 clubs attempt to join a lower division after getting kicked out and/or going bust in the top - Strikers, Canberra city, Northern Spirit, Woolongong Wolves, Gold Coast United, NQ Fury. Of those 6, only NQ fury has died, so superficially the survival rate of franchises joining lower leagues is higher than the top division and certainly higher than the survival rate of clubs that don't try. Having said that, in two cases (NWS Spirit and Gold Coast United) the change was so significant that you could reasonably consider them new franchises. Even if that is the case, they are still franchises that have survived in a lower division. Since franchises depend on top down investment more than traditional clubs, the survival rate is likely to be even higher if there is a path back to the top

5. Is also shaky and is probably the morally bleakest argument. Incredibly it has even been defended using racial hygiene metaphors "dirty water and clean water can't mix". Perth glory, Adelaide united evidently got big crowds while playing in the same league as traditional clubs in the late nsl era. Having said that, the modest evidential basis for it is that no Sydney or Melbourne franchise was successful in the long term until the a league era. Some of the Sydney/Melbourne franchises were associated with nrl/afl clubs, so they weren't really broadbase clubs as fans of other nrl/afl clubs might be dissuaded from joining. So really we are just comparing Northern Spirit - which declined dramatically after initially pulling large crowds - with Sydney FC, Melbourne Victory, Western Sydney Wanderers, Melbourne Heart, Macarthur and Western United. There are other plausible explanations for the differing outcomes of Spirit compared to SFC and Victory. Having less teams in the city probably boosted crowd averages. There was also the big boost that came from launching a league around the time we made the world cup for the first time in 32 years.

So accepting 6 means accepting that the stuff you miss out on by not having p&r is worth it for bigger crowds, but even believing there will be bigger crowds means accepting premises 4 and 5 which have shaky evidence and basically means giving up on the ethics of anglo Australia as well as believing the ends justify the means!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top