Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Australian football is approaching a fork in the road. We present a 161-page blueprint for a bold new future

Could promotion and relegation work in the A-League? We explain the A1-A2 blueprint, its costs, expansion model and vision for Australian football.

football360.com.au

TLDR summary, lets get some wog clubs into the A1-A2 so we can pretend to have pro/rel and hopefully save the current APL investors. hahahah

In all seriousness, alot of work has gone into this so kudos to Matt and his team who have been pushing this forever.. Ill got through it when I get a chance.

 

[Barca4life]

Good for putting it there, we got to work with the reality of where we are right now as well plan ahead to make it happen.

No idea is bullet proof but it’s worth putting it out there, I feel like it’s almost impossible for everyone to agree on the same thing when it comes to Aus football so it’s good to have a starting point tbh.

As Fozzie said in the podcast with Grazer, aus football has a tendency to think inward rather and try to figure how to make it work.

Also crickets from the main figures in the game, they should be putting a proposal in place to make it happen instead pointing fingers at each other which is embarrassing to say at least.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Good for putting it there, we got to work with the reality of where we are right now as well plan ahead to make it happen.

No idea is bullet proof but it’s worth putting it out there, I feel like it’s almost impossible for everyone to agree on the same thing when it comes to Aus football so it’s good to have a starting point tbh.

As Fozzie said in the podcast with Grazer, aus football has a tendency to think inward rather and try to figure how to make it work.

Also crickets from the main figures in the game, they should be putting a proposal in place to make it happen instead pointing fingers at each other which is embarrassing to say at least.

They are mate. This is an APL proposal. Matt has been "set free" into grass roots football land in order to make A1-A2 closed shop more palatable to the rest of us.

I agree its great to have a starting point, but it seems like this has the valuation of the APL licenses as its main reason of existing.

The financial fate of 12 x clubs is NOT more important than 1000+

 

[Glenardo]

They are mate. This is an APL proposal. Matt has been "set free" into grass roots football land in order to make A1-A2 closed shop more palatable to the rest of us.

I agree its great to have a starting point, but it seems like this has the valuation of the APL licenses as its main reason of existing.

The financial fate of 12 x clubs is NOT more important than 1000+

But are they still suggesting making up new clubs that no one asked for mixed in with aus championship clubs to make up the A2..if so, why? Just bring all the foundation clubs in plus the likes of Adelaide city, south Hobart etc and make that the “A2” if so

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

But are they still suggesting making up new clubs that no one asked for mixed in with aus championship clubs to make up the A2..if so, why? Just bring all the foundation clubs in plus the likes of Adelaide city, south Hobart etc and make that the “A2” if so

It is ALL about maximising existing equity and figuring out how to squeeze more out of the 2029 Broadcasting deal - Its more "football but not as you know it" If the broadcaster wants another club in Tarneit the APL will provide another club in Tarneit...

There is a reason Matt states:

"By 2029, Australian football must make a bold declaration about what it wants its professional game to become over the decade that follows."

And that reason has NOTHING to do with the Socceroos or the Matilidas, has NOTHING to do with connecting the pyramid, has NOTHING to do with uniting all of football under one roof, but EVERYTHING to do with making sure the people from overseas who have invested in the APL franchises do NOT pull out.

 

[HappyGuus]

TLDR summary, lets get some wog clubs into the A1-A2 so we can pretend to have pro/rel and hopefully save the current APL investors. hahahah

I see it more about trying to get a professional second tier working. Priority should be a professional Championship, but if they can't get at least eight clubs then the A2 is a fine backup with the 2-4 member fed teams than can professionalise.

But are they still suggesting making up new clubs that no one asked for mixed in with aus championship clubs to make up the A2..if so, why? Just bring all the foundation clubs in plus the likes of Adelaide city, south Hobart etc and make that the “A2” if so

With respect, people are asking for them. And why wouldn't they want another Auckland success with 10-15,000 crowds? Whether we like it or not, it works. There doesn't have to be one way to connect it all. Christchurch, Tassie, Gold Coast can all enter on a hefty licence and get 5-10,000 crowds, and South Melbourne, Preston etc. can enter on a nominal fee with smaller distributions or similar. I think that's the idea.

If the broadcaster wants another club in Tarneit the APL will provide another club in Tarneit...

Heaven help us But that was FFA, I don't think APL/Rosich nor the fans will let that happen again. That idea would be shot down before it even tries to take off.

 

[Glenardo]

I see it more about trying to get a professional second tier working. Priority should be a professional Championship, but if they can't get at least eight clubs then the A2 is a fine backup with the 2-4 member fed teams than can professionalise.


With respect, people are asking for them. And why wouldn't they want another Auckland success with 10-15,000 crowds? Whether we like it or not, it works. There doesn't have to be one way to connect it all. Christchurch, Tassie, Gold Coast can all enter on a hefty licence and get 5-10,000 crowds, and South Melbourne, Preston etc. can enter on a nominal fee with smaller distributions or similar. I think that's the idea.


Heaven help us But that was FFA, I don't think APL/Rosich nor the fans will let that happen again. That idea would be shot down before it even tries to take off.

Perhaps a clumsy choice of words on my part. The crux of my argument is that hypothetical franchises with no groundswell shouldn’t be given priority over the aus championship foundation clubs. Not majority new entities and a couple of “acceptable” championship clubs

Again, I’m not inherently against new entities being formed if there’s a demand for them. I was for the formation of Sydney fc and Melbourne victory, and I was for the formation of the wanderers. Probably a Canberra etc would work. But not for the sake of it to make up numbers when there’s clubs who have been knocking down the door to get a second Div up and running. Get in line etc

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

I see it more about trying to get a professional second tier working. Priority should be a professional Championship, but if they can't get at least eight clubs then the A2 is a fine backup with the 2-4 member fed teams than can professionalise.


With respect, people are asking for them. And why wouldn't they want another Auckland success with 10-15,000 crowds? Whether we like it or not, it works. There doesn't have to be one way to connect it all. Christchurch, Tassie, Gold Coast can all enter on a hefty licence and get 5-10,000 crowds, and South Melbourne, Preston etc. can enter on a nominal fee with smaller distributions or similar. I think that's the idea.


Heaven help us But that was FFA, I don't think APL/Rosich nor the fans will let that happen again. That idea would be shot down before it even tries to take off.

Im glad you brought up the Australian Championship ... seems to be a very glaringly obvious ommison from this (I haven't read it all yet admittedly just glanced through some of it and got bogged down in the macroeconomics of justifying the protection of foreign investment zzzzzzz) ). I wonder why that is .


Sorry, there is a teeny tiny bumping of it outside the tent.. hehehe .. "grow first, and stablise" pffffftttt

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Perhaps a clumsy choice of words on my part. The crux of my argument is that hypothetical franchises with no groundswell shouldn’t be given priority over the aus championship foundation clubs. Not majority new entities and a couple of “acceptable” championship clubs

Again, I’m not inherently against new entities being formed if there’s a demand for them. I was for the formation of Sydney fc and Melbourne victory, and I was for the formation of the wanderers. Probably a Canberra etc would work. But not for the sake of it to make up numbers when there’s clubs who have been knocking down the door to get a second Div up and running. Get in line etc

They dont want clubs in the long run, they only want them there as placeholders in 2029 when the broadcasting right come up and they can value add then find more franchise investors to sell licenses too... its PONZI... clear as day. I just hope no football club (mine included) falls for the sizzle.

 

[HappyGuus]

Im glad you brought up the Australian Championship ... seems to be a very glaringly obvious ommison from this (I haven't read it all yet admittedly just glanced through some of it and got bogged down in the macroeconomics of justifying the protection of foreign investment zzzzzzz) ). I wonder why that is .


Sorry, there is a teeny tiny bumping of it outside the tent.. hehehe .. "grow first, and stablise" pffffftttt

View attachment 9239

Hehe yeah I was waiting a while watching it for the NST to get a mention.

I suppose the Championship would either become a semi-pro national third tier, or if that's unsustainable, a post NPL season tournament. Either way, I can't see the Championship or A2 accepting semi-pro teams. FA definitely want it to be pro. That's the "closed off" part for clubs not wanting to turn pro

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Hehe yeah I was waiting a while watching it for the NST to get a mention.

I suppose the Championship would either become a semi-pro national third tier, or if that's unsustainable, a post NPL season tournament. Either way, I can't see the Championship or A2 accepting semi-pro teams. FA definitely want it to be pro. That's the "closed off" part for clubs not wanting to turn pro

Happy for Championhsip to be semi pro but open at the bottom to ALL of Australia . The A1-A2 best if they stay as new franchsies then...

 

[NicCarBel]

Happy for Championhsip to be semi pro but open at the bottom to ALL of Australia . The A1-A2 best if they stay as new franchsies then...

agreed approach

 

[HappyGuus]

Production costs are insane. I'd love to know how much SBS did the Championship for.

 

[HonestSpursFan]

Here’s a question I’m stuck on: we know how the first and second tiers would work, but how should relegation below the second tier work? Would it remain as A-League to Championship to NPL or would we introduce more national tiers?

In Europe they usually have a few national divisions and then regional divisions that get smaller and smaller as you go down, with some countries having grouped national divisions (i.e. national divisions split into groups, e.g. Serie C) in between. To give an idea of how many ungrouped national tiers each country has in men’s football: France has three, Germany has three, Italy has two, the Netherlands has three, Portugal has two, Spain has two and so on. The UK is unique in that England and Scotland have five and four, respectively, which is more than the two or three seen in the pro systems of Continental Europe.

In Asia, they also do this. Japan has four national tiers, the same number as the Scottish pyramid with a similar principle as the English one (as in, Japan has three pro national tiers and one amateur one, while England has four national ones and one semi-pro one). The national tier structure persists in many other countries, with China having three, Iran having two, Saudi Arabia having two and so on. However, in South Korea they don’t have true regional tiers until the eighth division and below, though only the top four divisions are ungrouped national tiers.

Other countries are pretty similar, with Argentina having two, Brazil having four and Mexico normally having two as another three other examples. So what should we do? We have a concept for an NST, should we make one for an NTT too?

 

[theFOOTBALLlover]

I was watching the Breaking Barriers video.. turned it off at A1 clubs playing each other twice and playing A2 clubs once. We love reinventing the wheel in Australia. Open the pyramid, have proper and clear criteria for each division like the Japanese FA made for J1-3 and lets get the ball rolling.

 

[NicCarBel]

Here’s a question I’m stuck on: we know how the first and second tiers would work, but how should relegation below the second tier work? Would it remain as A-League to Championship to NPL or would we introduce more national tiers?

In Europe they usually have a few national divisions and then regional divisions that get smaller and smaller as you go down, with some countries having grouped national divisions (i.e. national divisions split into groups, e.g. Serie C) in between. To give an idea of how many ungrouped national tiers each country has in men’s football: France has three, Germany has three, Italy has two, the Netherlands has three, Portugal has two, Spain has two and so on. The UK is unique in that England and Scotland have five and four, respectively, which is more than the two or three seen in the pro systems of Continental Europe.

In Asia, they also do this. Japan has four national tiers, the same number as the Scottish pyramid with a similar principle as the English one (as in, Japan has three pro national tiers and one amateur one, while England has four national ones and one semi-pro one). The national tier structure persists in many other countries, with China having three, Iran having two, Saudi Arabia having two and so on. However, in South Korea they don’t have true regional tiers until the eighth division and below, though only the top four divisions are ungrouped national tiers.

Other countries are pretty similar, with Argentina having two, Brazil having four and Mexico normally having two as another three other examples. So what should we do? We have a concept for an NST, should we make one for an NTT too?

If I had the keys to the kingdom it would be - just like the Australia Cup did - to piggyback of what already exists.

1. A-League
2. Championship
3. NPL current structures

First, you introduce P/R between 2 and 3. Could almost do that immediately. Last place of Championship goes down to their member fed NPL, and the winner of the returning NPL Finals is promoted to the Championship.

Then you introduce P/R between 1 and 2. Maybe at first it’s not automatic P/R - perhaps last place of A-League and premiers of Championship have a playoff for the final A-League spot next season. Then, once it’s decided that the gulf between 1 and 2 is closed, you can expand that and have automatic P/R (last place down, and first place up), and then perhaps a promotion-relegation playoff finals using the rest of the top four and the second-last place.

Minimal reason to create anything new, especially new clubs, piggyback off what already exists, and let it happen organically.

If it turned out they announced a format like the one above and said we will finalise it in 30 years, with these steps, etc, then so be it.

 

[HonestSpursFan]

If I had the keys to the kingdom it would be - just like the Australia Cup did - to piggyback of what already exists.

1. A-League
2. Championship
3. NPL current structures

First, you introduce P/R between 2 and 3. Could almost do that immediately. Last place of Championship goes down to their member fed NPL, and the winner of the returning NPL Finals is promoted to the Championship.

Then you introduce P/R between 1 and 2. Maybe at first it’s not automatic P/R - perhaps last place of A-League and premiers of Championship have a playoff for the final A-League spot next season. Then, once it’s decided that the gulf between 1 and 2 is closed, you can expand that and have automatic P/R (last place down, and first place up), and then perhaps a promotion-relegation playoff finals using the rest of the top four and the second-last place.

Minimal reason to create anything new, especially new clubs, piggyback off what already exists, and let it happen organically.

If it turned out they announced a format like the one above and said we will finalise it in 30 years, with these steps, etc, then so be it.

So only one relegation spot? Personally I think that’s good to start with but adding another one or two in there means that matches matter even more.

 

[NicCarBel]

So only one relegation spot? Personally I think that’s good to start with but adding another one or two in there means that matches matter even more.

Well, yeah that's what I mean - introduce that as a starting point and see how it expands if needed

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Here’s a question I’m stuck on: we know how the first and second tiers would work, but how should relegation below the second tier work? Would it remain as A-League to Championship to NPL or would we introduce more national tiers?

In Europe they usually have a few national divisions and then regional divisions that get smaller and smaller as you go down, with some countries having grouped national divisions (i.e. national divisions split into groups, e.g. Serie C) in between. To give an idea of how many ungrouped national tiers each country has in men’s football: France has three, Germany has three, Italy has two, the Netherlands has three, Portugal has two, Spain has two and so on. The UK is unique in that England and Scotland have five and four, respectively, which is more than the two or three seen in the pro systems of Continental Europe.

In Asia, they also do this. Japan has four national tiers, the same number as the Scottish pyramid with a similar principle as the English one (as in, Japan has three pro national tiers and one amateur one, while England has four national ones and one semi-pro one). The national tier structure persists in many other countries, with China having three, Iran having two, Saudi Arabia having two and so on. However, in South Korea they don’t have true regional tiers until the eighth division and below, though only the top four divisions are ungrouped national tiers.

Other countries are pretty similar, with Argentina having two, Brazil having four and Mexico normally having two as another three other examples. So what should we do? We have a concept for an NST, should we make one for an NTT too?

How about having a proposal for promotion/relegation that INCLUDES relegation? This whole "concept" is a mechanism to increase license value by protecting current franchisees from EVER having to drop below a controlled, professional level, It is pro/rel in name only...

You watch football around the world, in often remarkable countries , some I have never even heard of.. Can you tell me (with the exception of the US and currently Mexico) in which other country is a top division club given absolute immunity from being relegated down to the third, fourth, fifth tier of football?

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

If I had the keys to the kingdom it would be - just like the Australia Cup did - to piggyback of what already exists.

1. A-League
2. Championship
3. NPL current structures

First, you introduce P/R between 2 and 3. Could almost do that immediately. Last place of Championship goes down to their member fed NPL, and the winner of the returning NPL Finals is promoted to the Championship.

Then you introduce P/R between 1 and 2. Maybe at first it’s not automatic P/R - perhaps last place of A-League and premiers of Championship have a playoff for the final A-League spot next season. Then, once it’s decided that the gulf between 1 and 2 is closed, you can expand that and have automatic P/R (last place down, and first place up), and then perhaps a promotion-relegation playoff finals using the rest of the top four and the second-last place.

Minimal reason to create anything new, especially new clubs, piggyback off what already exists, and let it happen organically.

If it turned out they announced a format like the one above and said we will finalise it in 30 years, with these steps, etc, then so be it.

Im not trying to diminish your post but its NOT really rocket science is it? If the APL just got the fuck out of the way and the franchises were willing to accept that, if they want the sport to grow, they have accept the jeopardy of potential relegation then it can start next year.

Lets be real 1-2 Aleague clubs would be yo yo, the rest would NEVER even come close to going down... they are just dopey investors that dont understand football.