Breaking Barriers - web series 📺

[patjennings]

And who holds the majority of the votes on FA board?

The 100 votes for the FA board have 55 from State Federations.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

The 100 votes for the FA board have 55 from State Federations.

Sure and 28 from A League clubs directly 7 votes from Players Union (ALeague) and 10 votes from Women's football.

Not even going to talk about how the 55 votes for state federation are allocated to states who clearly DONT want the APL to lose...

 

[patjennings]

Sure and 28 from A League clubs directly 7 votes from Players Union (ALeague) and 10 votes from Women's football.

Not even going to talk about how the 55 votes for state federation are allocated to states who clearly DONT want the APL to lose...

Who can vote on State Federations - the make up of the FA favours those over the APL. If they are doing the best for their Federations then the APL is very much a minority. If not get them voted out.

 

[Son of Sam]

He's a weathervane, the scumbag supported the NCIP 100% so he can go fuck himself.

Sfougari/Flogari/Rugari supported NCIP?!! Really? Are you sure?

 

[Stu]

The key difference with Japan's approach - as @Monoethnic Social Club points out - is that they set their 100-year vision and stuck to it. They set clear requirements for associate status into J2, and same for J3. This means clubs are able to see what they have to strive to achieve and begin to make it happen. FA and APL (in particular) might hesitate to set clear criteria, because they’d lose the ability to reject clubs on bogus grounds as well as being bound by those requirements themselves.

Secondly, the JFA did not split J1 to form J2. They took 9 clubs from the semi-pro JFL who met the J2 standards and had been given associate status and one J1 club to make the 10 team J2. It would be akin to taking the 8 foundation clubs (+1 more) from the NST and this year’s last placed A-League team to form a 10 team second tier next year.

By being clear on standards and basing everything on merit - first on meeting their off-field requirements, then achieving the sporting requirements – Japanese clubs knew what they needed to do to get their foot in the door.

If the FA set clear criteria to compete in the NSD and then to get promotion to the A-League, it gives clubs clarity on what they need to do to get in. They could also set the trigger point for when relegation to the NPL will begin. If they set the goal for 50 clubs (to take a round figure), across three divisions it would be decades before we got there at the very earliest. That gives A-League clubs plenty of time to work out how they would manage a drop into the NPL.

No club would be turned away before we get to that magic figure and relegation begins only when that happens, like the J-League. If we never get to the point where we have 50 clubs able to compete on a national level, then arguing about connecting the NPL directly to whatever national competitions we have is moot. As a side point, there are levels in the English pyramid where little promotion occurs because most of the clubs competing at the next level because it turns regional and they don't want to travel the greater distances that it brings.

I imagine if we never get to 50 clubs what we’d see is a de facto P/R with the NPL’s via clubs withdrawing from the national division due to finances and more ambitious clubs being added.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

The key difference with Japan's approach - as @Monoethnic Social Club points out - is that they set their 100-year vision and stuck to it. They set clear requirements for associate status into J2, and same for J3. This means clubs are able to see what they have to strive to achieve and begin to make it happen. FA and APL (in particular) might hesitate to set clear criteria, because they’d lose the ability to reject clubs on bogus grounds as well as being bound by those requirements themselves.

Secondly, the JFA did not split J1 to form J2. They took 9 clubs from the semi-pro JFL who met the J2 standards and had been given associate status and one J1 club to make the 10 team J2. It would be akin to taking the 8 foundation clubs (+1 more) from the NST and this year’s last placed A-League team to form a 10 team second tier next year.

By being clear on standards and basing everything on merit - first on meeting their off-field requirements, then achieving the sporting requirements – Japanese clubs knew what they needed to do to get their foot in the door.

If the FA set clear criteria to compete in the NSD and then to get promotion to the A-League, it gives clubs clarity on what they need to do to get in. They could also set the trigger point for when relegation to the NPL will begin. If they set the goal for 50 clubs (to take a round figure), across three divisions it would be decades before we got there at the very earliest. That gives A-League clubs plenty of time to work out how they would manage a drop into the NPL.

No club would be turned away before we get to that magic figure and relegation begins only when that happens, like the J-League. If we never get to the point where we have 50 clubs able to compete on a national level, then arguing about connecting the NPL directly to whatever national competitions we have is moot. As a side point, there are levels in the English pyramid where little promotion occurs because most of the clubs competing at the next level because it turns regional and they don't want to travel the greater distances that it brings.

I imagine if we never get to 50 clubs what we’d see is a de facto P/R with the NPL’s via clubs withdrawing from the national division due to finances and more ambitious clubs being added.

I agree with what you say but AGAIN why are we protecting Aleague franchises, even after 20 years? Why is THAT the consideration in anything?

 

[HappyGuus]

 

[grazorblade]

I think the point is that it does mean death in a number of ways for A-League clubs. Compare Marconi with WSW. If Marconi won their way to A1 - with their solid base, history, home ground an alternate revenue streams I think they could compete well either in the professional game or on a semi-pro basis.

Then consider WSW, if they dropped to A2 their playing roster would drop, apart from the media money (not that much), their backroom staff would drop, sponsorship would stop, their academy would drop, they don't own their own ground unless you think of Wanderers Park. If they remain at Commbank they are unsustainable with game day money going to the lease holder . Can they get back up - maybe - could they sustain a drop out of A2 - not a chance. Marconi and the other hand with their alternate revenue streams can just tailor their spend to their place easily,

I think the 'relegation step' out of A2 and back to NPL is too far for ALM clubs - they are not set up to run as a semi pro club, I guess from a club that can survive lower like Marconi they could just opt out of the A1/A2 setup and play where they want if they believe the spend is unjustified each season.

The distinction between an associate license ~ $1m and a full license (buying a stake in A Leagues overall and sharing profits or my likely losses) is interesting. i.e. You have the ground, lights, academy etc pay your one off license fee of $1M and stay where you are. Win promotion you are in.

oh they would definitely lose players and staff with each relegation every step but I don't think they fold

if ccm was relegated to the npl (and the pyramid was open so you still had a clear path back up) would you still follow them?

If enough people say yes they survive

 

[HappyGuus]

why are we protecting Aleague franchises

It would be for all clubs, just saying

 

[grazorblade]

C'mon Grazor, its fairly transparent whats going on here?

This A1-A2 proposal was APL's brainchild as dictated to Rugari nearly 3 years ago... How much or how little Windley had to do with it at the time is questionable but he has certainly embraced it as his own idea now...

It came to light at a time when there was the most postivity around the NST and pro rel to NPLs... Its a disruptor nothing else... and something ike it will come up EVERY SINGLE time there is a bit of celar sky for the game here that doesnt involve the APL ....

Revealed: The plan to embrace promotion and relegation in the A-League

As Football Australia forges ahead with plans for a national second division, A-League clubs have been presented with an alternative model that would see the best clubs introduced to the top tier.

www.theage.com.au

Get A-League second tier up and running first, then talk pro-rel: PFA

The A-League players' union believes a fully professional national second division is a genuine possibility by 2021.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

I'll relay the reaction of the old 442 forum which you nicely summarized. Anything in particular you want to highlight apart from the above

 

[grazorblade]

How is it miles better? Having Avondale "promoted" to A2 and then squatting on a license forever collecting nonexistent TV distribution while another 100 other clubs try and get in???

It misses a lot of benefits but it has three benefits

1) p and r between a 1st and 2nd tier makes a second tier more viable
2) stakes in the top tier of getting relegated down to the 2nd
3) transparent criteria for getting promoted from below 3rd tier so clubs know what to aim for

It has negatives
1) slower growth of participation rate and national tier ready clubs due to difficult access to the top tier
2) potential atrophy at the bottom of the 2nd tier due to a lack of stakes leading to a steeper drop in quality

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

if ccm was relegated to the npl (and the pyramid was open so you still had a clear path back up) would you still follow them?

Why wouldnt he? My impression is he is CCM for life and i for one can admire that and the logic he always tends to put forward in argument, even if sometimes we wont agree, nothing but respect... thats the type of supporters that should be the actual stakeholders of the game, the majority of which unfortunately currently lay outside the AL and are excluded..

 

[grazorblade]

The 100 votes for the FA board have 55 from State Federations.

Sure and 28 from A League clubs directly 7 votes from Players Union (ALeague) and 10 votes from Women's football.

Not even going to talk about how the 55 votes for state federation are allocated to states who clearly DONT want the APL to lose...

yeah 28 direct votes for the APL and 13 indirect depending how you count then a couple of state fa's who were hostile to the nst (one is on the record in pignata) which made it difficult

I think it is worth comparing to England and the crawford report

Crawford report had 4% for the top division and most of the rest for states coupled with a reform of states
England has 20% for the top and 50% for local - a level below states - 20% for levels 2-5 and 10% for special interests

I believe we have local governments? Ideally I would like votes to be redistributed to them. The lower down the pecking order those with votes have the easier it is for the plebs to have a say and harder it is for agendas to hold the game back

 

[grazorblade]

Sfougari/Flogari/Rugari supported NCIP?!! Really? Are you sure?

I think the allegation was that Windley supported the NCIP. Is there a record of this or am i misinterpreting the post?

 

[grazorblade]

The key difference with Japan's approach - as @Monoethnic Social Club points out - is that they set their 100-year vision and stuck to it. They set clear requirements for associate status into J2, and same for J3. This means clubs are able to see what they have to strive to achieve and begin to make it happen. FA and APL (in particular) might hesitate to set clear criteria, because they’d lose the ability to reject clubs on bogus grounds as well as being bound by those requirements themselves.

Secondly, the JFA did not split J1 to form J2. They took 9 clubs from the semi-pro JFL who met the J2 standards and had been given associate status and one J1 club to make the 10 team J2. It would be akin to taking the 8 foundation clubs (+1 more) from the NST and this year’s last placed A-League team to form a 10 team second tier next year.

By being clear on standards and basing everything on merit - first on meeting their off-field requirements, then achieving the sporting requirements – Japanese clubs knew what they needed to do to get their foot in the door.

If the FA set clear criteria to compete in the NSD and then to get promotion to the A-League, it gives clubs clarity on what they need to do to get in. They could also set the trigger point for when relegation to the NPL will begin. If they set the goal for 50 clubs (to take a round figure), across three divisions it would be decades before we got there at the very earliest. That gives A-League clubs plenty of time to work out how they would manage a drop into the NPL.

No club would be turned away before we get to that magic figure and relegation begins only when that happens, like the J-League. If we never get to the point where we have 50 clubs able to compete on a national level, then arguing about connecting the NPL directly to whatever national competitions we have is moot. As a side point, there are levels in the English pyramid where little promotion occurs because most of the clubs competing at the next level because it turns regional and they don't want to travel the greater distances that it brings.

I imagine if we never get to 50 clubs what we’d see is a de facto P/R with the NPL’s via clubs withdrawing from the national division due to finances and more ambitious clubs being added.

yeah if they say "this is the criteria you need to get into the a league and here is the criteria to geting into a hypothetical h and a" make it public, clear and transparent then wait for investors to come I suspect we start growing like Japan. If no investors come, well nothing lost lol

 

[grazorblade]

Why wouldnt he? My impression is he is CCM for life and i for one can admire that and the logic he always tends to put forward in argument, even if sometimes we wont agree, nothing but respect... thats the type of supporters that should be the actual stakeholders of the game, the majority of which unfortunately currently lay outside the AL and are excluded..

The people most panicked that relegation means death are the very people that means relegation doesn't mean death as their panick indicates the sort of passion and dedication to keep the club alive and bounce back stronger

at the moment, the rbb issues a statement and it gets a little mocked and probably ignored by the owners. If wsw get relegated the club either listens to their hardcore support or dies. Actually, even better than that the people who care most about the club take over

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

It misses a lot of benefits but it has three benefits

1) p and r between a 1st and 2nd tier makes a second tier more viable
2) stakes in the top tier of getting relegated down to the 2nd
3) transparent criteria for getting promoted from below 3rd tier so clubs know what to aim for

It has negatives
1) slower growth of participation rate and national tier ready clubs due to difficult access to the top tier
2) potential atrophy at the bottom of the 2nd tier due to a lack of stakes leading to a steeper drop in quality

All the essence is right here...
"3) transparent criteria for getting promoted" which i understand applies to all tiers... well and good, but...Who sets the criteria? Cant be APL or any entity born of it or AL...Who can guarantee, that like in the last 2 decades, that criteria dont suddenly become 'shifitng sand' controlled by the same vested interests?

To me, like others, the more they talk, the more obvious it becomes that its about killing off the momentum of the challengers and like everything else is investment protection rathrr than good of the game!

 

[grazorblade]

All the essence is right here...
"3) transparent criteria for getting promoted" which i understand applies to all tiers... well and good, but...Who sets the criteria? Cant be APL or any entity born of it or AL...Who can guarantee, that like in the last 2 decades, that criteria dont suddenly become 'shifitng sand' controlled by the same vested interests?

To me, like others, the more they talk, the more obvious it becomes that its about killing off the momentum of the challengers and like everything else is investment protection rathrr than good of the game!

I'll be challenging the logic of criteria today

 

[patjennings]

oh they would definitely lose players and staff with each relegation every step but I don't think they fold

if ccm was relegated to the npl (and the pyramid was open so you still had a clear path back up) would you still follow them?

If enough people say yes they survive

absolutely - they would play at Pluim where I often watch the Academy

 

[grazorblade]

absolutely - they would play at Pluim where I often watch the Academy

An irony in our culture is the people most panicked about relegation are the very people whose passion would make it work. People like u would keep the club alive and equally important, ensure relegation was short lived and make sure the club learns its lessons and reforms in any way needed. The board would be forced to talk to people like u to figure out how to bounce back and diagnose what went wrong