Straya Day

[Monoethnic Social Club]

I wouldnt support the invasion and I would use my vote in the most prudent way to prevent it from happening... Sure I would protest and boycott but I dont think I could ever condone burning the Australian flag -- an effigy of the PM or sympols of his/her party perhaps... but I wouldnt lump the WHOLE Australian People under the one unbrella. I do agree with the right to do those things thow, don't misunderstand. I just find it disresepctful and wrong.

Sure.

If our government was murdering 10s of thousands of people and descending into a fascist shithole then why not?

Would you be proud of 'Australia'

 

[Muz]

Go back to my post @Monoethnic Social Club

I edited it.

 

[Sharkman84]

Can we just close this thread.

It's gone on too long

Why?

Is this like a Reddit circlejerk where anyone to the right of Stalin is demonised?

 

[Football us life]

Quick sidebar. If Australia was currently engaged in, I don't know, mass murder of East Timorese people over, say gas rights, and I'm talking 10 thousand of them, do you think burning the flag to protest the government's actions would be warranted?

I'd say yes but I'm interested in your thoughts as someone whose opinion I have time for.

That's quite the caveat there Muz....Look to be honest it's not something that I would do personally. But if another person at a protest did it then that's up to them...

Edit] And I would certainly not have a pop at them for doing so....

Would I think it warranted?

No I wouldn't, I do think that it would be futile though...

For any country to inflict such huge losses of human life on another over something like gas rights would mean that it's government wouldn't be overly bothered by someone burning their flag at a protest.

 

[Muz]

That's quite the caveat there Muz....Look to be honest it's not something that I would do personally. But if another person at a protest did it then that's up to them...

Would I think it warranted?

No I wouldn't, I do think that it would be futile though...

For any country to inflict such huge losses of human life on another over something like gas rights would mean that it's government wouldn't be overly bothered by someone burning their flag at a protest.

Fair enough. I see something like that as the ultimate 'fuck you' to the government and would completely understand.

As distasteful as it is, and like I've said, there's a reason both sides of government have refused to outlaw it.

They see it, and I realise not everyone agrees, as an important right of freedom of expression.

I agree that it is but understand people don't like it.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Sure.

If our government was murdering 10s of thousands of people and descending into a fascist shithole then probably.

Would you be proud of 'Australia' or be proud to be an Australian if that were happening?

Double sidebar, would you be upset at east Timorese people chanting 'fuck Australia' and give them a pass for that?

YES I asbolutely would be upset at the East Timor People chanting fuck Australia.. To be a cheesy mofo, I am Australia, You are Australia We all are Australia not just our governement or army... sorry thats a hard pass for me.

 

[Football us life]

Fair enough. I see something like that as the ultimate 'fuck you' to the government and would completely understand.

As distasteful as it is, and like I've said, there's a reason both sides of government have refused to outlaw it.

They see it, and I realise not everyone agrees, as an important right of freedom of expression.

I agree that it is but understand people don't like it.

As I said im not one to put shit on a country and its people and historical culture just because of the government of the day happens to be nuts.

Think Israel....think Russia.....think Iran....think the USA!

 

[RIMB]

@zimbos05 - are you really MCG, the not so phantom Western United thread crusher, in disguise?

Aside from personal attacks, there are actually a few different strands of genuine discussion here - but you want it closed rather than just not reading it anymore yourself? Is that a reasonable approach on self-reflection?

...If our government was murdering 10s of thousands of people and descending into a fascist shithole then probably.

Would you be proud of 'Australia' or be proud to be an Australian if that were happening?...

I know you are not asking me, but it ties in a little with what I said earlier about being proud of Australia and proud to be an Aussie.

The disgust, embarrassment and ill-feeling I have towards those who bring our country down - at any level of Government or as individuals and groups - is a direct flow on from my pride and ownership of the country.

I am proud to be an Aussie and I hate what is being done by 'very bad people'. It is because I care about our country and have pride in the place that I feel aggrieved.

You can feel shame because of your pride - but it is shame of the decision makers and action takers not shame of the country. I do not feel ashamed to be an Aussie - I feel ashamed that others call themselves Aussies and damage our country while doing so.

For the flag burning itself - I expect there is a level of Government that knows that anyone who burns an Aussie flag alienates most of the population against their stated goals. It doesn't hurt the Government at all.

Burn the flag and people judge you.
Burn and/or deface the logos of any Government parties and people understand you.

 

[Muz]

YES I asbolutely would be upset at the East Timor People chanting fuck Australia.. To be a cheesy mofo, I am Australia, You are Australia We all are Australia not just our governement or army... sorry thats a hard pass for me.

When they chant 'death to America' or 'fuck America' in middle eastern countries they're aiming that at the government not the people.

I wouldn't take it to heart unless I was actively for what they were doing.

 

[Robbos]

I've been to quite a few historical Aboriginal art exhibitions in various places and some of the stuff is exquisite. One particular exhibition was at MONA in Hobart where they recreated some of the cave art in the gallery I was blown away.

Also one at the Art Gallery of South Australia which was all portable pieces.which were amazingly presented.

There's always going to be daft people who say its just a load of dots and squiggles using ochre colours but you really have to try and understand the cultural significance of it to appreciate its finer points.

The whole Dreamtime storytelling thing is quite humbling really.

Exactly, the dreamtime storytelling of the the land & the paintings are very humbling.

The land is not theirs but they are part of the land as we all are.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

When they chant 'death to America' or 'fuck America' in middle eastern countries they're aiming that at the government not the people.

I wouldn't take it to heart unless I was actively for what they were doing.

I dont know if thats true mate.... Did you see the Hamas home videos after October 7th? Jesus Christ there is some serious, well funded, indoctrination happening behind closed doors.

I know the vid below is in Syria but you get the idea...

 

[Football us life]

Exactly, the dreamtime storytelling of the the land & the paintings are very humbling.

The land is not theirs but they are part of the land as we all are.

The South Australian Museum which is in the same precinct as the state's art gallery is fantastic. It houses what is the world's most comprehensive collection of Aboriginal cultural material.... I loved every minute of my 4 hours in there....

Yeah.. I'm one of those nerds who heads straight to the museums and art galleries when ever I go to a major city.

 

[zimbos05]

@zimbos05 - are you really MCG, the not so phantom Western United thread crusher, in disguise?

Aside from personal attacks, there are actually a few different strands of genuine discussion here - but you want it closed rather than just not reading it anymore yourself? Is that a reasonable approach on self-reflection?

We already have an Australian politics thread. We can have discussions and discourse, but this thread has just turned into a "bash the first nations and anyone who supports them".

I'd say it's a pretty reasonable approach. We don't need to further field the hatred and division that already spreads on our society. Most of these posters have done this on previous forums before.

I don't think we should be a forum that gives a platform to the demonization and dehumanisation of first nations people, and their rights.

 

[RIMB]

We already have an Australian politics thread. We can have discussions and discourse, but this thread has just turned into a "bash the first nations and anyone who supports them".

I'd say it's a pretty reasonable approach. We don't need to further field the hatred and division that already spreads on our society. Most of these posters have done this on previous forums before.

I don't think we should be a forum that gives a platform to the demonization and dehumanisation of first nations people, and their rights.

I understand where you are coming from - but at the same time there is a decent amount of positive discussion on here too as I read it.

Maybe not totally relevant in the Australia Day thread but also not irrelevant either. Most of this discussion actually sits better in here than in the Aussie Politics thread because it is more about Australian viewpoints than politics when it comes down to it.

You would block any good discussion in an attempt to censor the crap talking if you pulled the pin at the first round of abusive salvos.

Not every discussion requires polar opposites or extreme differences after all.

And not every decent human is going to have the same view on indigenous affairs. Some opinions will appear as demonisation from where you sit without them necessarily being so in the eyes of people with different experiences and exposure.

That again is the beauty of a forum like this - with an open mind, and ignoring some obviously extreme viewpoints if we choose to, you do get a chance to consider many different perspectives.

I know good stories and bad stories about indigenous people from my parents - who have spent some time among them and around them without being part of them. If you had seen more of the bad, or been affected by it, you would have a skewed perspective - same as if you had not seen much of the bad at all.

Some of their cultural practices are abhorrent to me - particularly around the treatment of women - but that does not represent the cultural worth of the 'people' or culture as a whole.

Surely, if you have spent time among them, you would have seen practices that you do not consider acceptable. It is not always individuals that are bad - some aspects of cultures are too.

Not saints. Not sinners. Just people who deserve decent and fair treatment, acceptance and recognition where their cultural values do not cross what the world considers the boundaries of decent behaviour.

As long as we try to tie it into an Australia Day package at least...which I have failed to do in this most of this post.

 

[zimbos05]

I understand where you are coming from - but at the same time there is a decent amount of positive discussion on here too as I read it.

Maybe not totally relevant in the Australia Day thread but also not irrelevant either. Most of this discussion actually sits better in here than in the Aussie Politics thread because it is more about Australian viewpoints than politics when it comes down to it.

You would block any good discussion in an attempt to censor the crap talking if you pulled the pin at the first round of abusive salvos.
Not every discussion requires polar opposites or extreme differences after all.

And not every decent human is going to have the same view on indigenous affairs. Some opinions will appear as demonisation from where you sit without them necessarily being so in the eyes of people with different experiences and exposure.

That again is the beauty of a forum like this - with an open mind, and ignoring some obviously extreme viewpoints if we choose to, you do get a chance to consider many different perspectives.

I know good stories and bad stories about indigenous people from my parents - who have spent some time among them and around them without being part of them. If you had seen more of the bad, or been affected by it, you would have a skewed perspective - same as if you had not seen much of the bad at all.

Some of their cultural practices are abhorrent to me - particularly around the treatment of women - but that does not represent the cultural worth of the 'people' or culture as a whole.

Surely, if you have spent time among them, you would have seen practices that you do not consider acceptable. It is not always individuals that are bad - some aspects of cultures are too.

Not saints. Not sinners. Just people who deserve decent and fair treatment, acceptance and recognition where their cultural values do not cross what the world considers the boundaries of decent behaviour.

As long as we try to tie it into an Australia Day package at least...which I have failed to do in this most of this post.

I'm not trying to pull the pin at the first sign. I enjoy the discussion and engaging with the majority of you. It can be quite mentally draining though when engagement tends to go down different paths. There are some on here that are not genuine and are clearly engaged in the conversation to stoke flames.

I've said before, I don't judge the person, I judge the action. I've seen actions I don't agree with in many cultures, not just First Nations. I find alcohol abhorrent, yet I have friends who drink, some of my best and closest friends too. I don't go around labelling every single person who drinks as bad, and saying statements like, "all catholic whites are alcoholics. I've never seen any other race or religion drink this much".

What it comes down to is two clear arguments. One that says this day is a major day of pain and hurt, and another that goes, "get over it".

Now if the discussion was genuine, that would not be the point. We had a bomb thrown into the crowd, yet it is so downplayed and so nonchalant in the way people are responding. But burning a flag, and people are losing their minds.

 

[RIMB]

I'm not trying to pull the pin at the first sign. I enjoy the discussion and engaging with the majority of you. It can be quite mentally draining though when engagement tends to go down different paths. There are some on here that are not genuine and are clearly engaged in the conversation to stoke flames.

I've said before, I don't judge the person, I judge the action. I've seen actions I don't agree with in many cultures, not just First Nations. I find alcohol abhorrent, yet I have friends who drink, some of my best and closest friends too. I don't go around labelling every single person who drinks as bad, and saying statements like, "all catholic whites are alcoholics. I've never seen any other race or religion drink this much".

What it comes down to is two clear arguments. One that says this day is a major day of pain and hurt, and another that goes, "get over it".

Now if the discussion was genuine, that would not be the point. We had a bomb thrown into the crowd, yet it is so downplayed and so nonchalant in the way people are responding. But burning a flag, and people are losing their minds.

I see a third argument - that just says this is a day that we have had for sometime and what it means to Australians in general is just a celebration of us all as one country. No pre-history, no 'get over it' - let it be nothing more than Australia Day and move on to actually addressing the real issues of traditional ownership and right by birth and citizenship.

By traditional ownership I am also including the whole spectrum of indigenous affairs without belittling them with one expression.

I can imagine just as much pain and hurt if the date was changed and still called Australia Day because much of the argument is about the physical amalgum that is 'Australia', what place the original inhabitants have in it, and whether Australia should exist as a new world country in the first place.

Pick a random day, call it Australia Day, and exactly the same legitimate discussions would come up - and continue to come up until the actual issues of indigenous rights and ownership are resolved. However that is done. And then there will still be a problem with it for some whichever way resolution is managed you can be sure.

Invasion Day feelings are not tied to 26 January in reality - it is the principle that has not been resolved so it will stick whatever date got chosen.

On your other point, if the bomb had gone off it would have been a mass killing with outrage - I agree it is mindboggling that it is seemingly less of a thing because it failed. What could have been is horrendous.

 

[Muz]

Now if the discussion was genuine, that would not be the point. We had a bomb thrown into the crowd, yet it is so downplayed and so nonchalant in the way people are responding. But burning a flag, and people are losing their minds.

Yes I'd be interested in hearing what 'patriots' like Beretta, jetsfan and sharkboy think about this bomb caper.

Clearly on the outrage scale flag burning is, like you said, higher up the list than a literal bomb thrown at first nations people and their supporters.

Other regulars have similarly been schtum about this too.

 

[zimbos05]

I see a third argument - that just says this is a day that we have had for sometime and what it means to Australians in general is just a celebration of us all as one country. No pre-history, no 'get over it' - let it be nothing more than Australia Day and move on to actually addressing the real issues of traditional ownership and right by birth and citizenship.

By traditional ownership I am also including the whole spectrum of indigenous affairs without belittling them with one expression.

I can imagine just as much pain and hurt if the date was changed and still called Australia Day because much of the argument is about the physical amalgum that is 'Australia', what place the original inhabitants have in it, and whether Australia should exist as a new world country in the first place.

Pick a random day, call it Australia Day, and exactly the same legitimate discussions would come up - and continue to come up until the actual issues of indigenous rights and ownership are resolved. However that is done. And then there will still be a problem with it for some whichever way resolution is managed you can be sure.

Invasion Day feelings are not tied to 26 January in reality - it is the principle that has not been resolved so it will stick whatever date got chosen.

On your other point, if the bomb had gone off it would have been a mass killing with outrage - I agree it is mindboggling that it is seemingly less of a thing because it failed. What could have been is horrendous.

Well, the current iteration of Australia day has only been celebrated since 1994. It's had many different dates in the past, and even different states celebrated at different times. Invasion day has been around much longer than that. So in essence, some time is only 30 years. It's not that significant in the scale of 200 years of colonisation. It can't be nothing more than 'just Australia Day' though. It is the day for Indigenous people that signifies the start of colonisation, not the celebration of this nation. For them, this nation is built off the back of their ancestors blood, so how can they celebrate that?

We have had many chances to address the real issues. The Voice got shot down, despite overwhelming support for it from First Nations people. We have had multiple First Nations bodies to parliament appointed and then disbanded. We've had conservative governments virtue signal during their time in power and not actually take any action on First Nations rights and needs. The man who was gunning for PM ran out of the apology. He labelled Welcome to Country as virtue signalling and overdone. Refused to stand in front of the Aboriginal flag, and promised to remove First Nations names from significant bases and areas. I'm not talking about a guy from the 70's but a guy who wanted to be PM last year. First Nations people still face higher incarceration rates and unfair treatment. How can we address all these issues when we can't even respect a simple request to not celebrate an invasion on one day? How can we take the right seriously when they say they want to do right by First Nations people when their leadership is deep rooted in not wanting to, and people vote for them?

A simple thing as not understanding the significance of the Welcome to Country. "I sHOulDn't haVE to Be wELcOMeD tO My COuNTry". They are not welcoming non First Nations only. They welcome other First Nations people too. It is an engrained part of their culture and custom that signifies respect and recognition. It signifies welcoming. If they never welcomed other tribes and people, it meant that you were not allowed and had to either leave, or there would be a fight between those tribes. In essence, it signifies that they accept and respect you. Yet, here we are in 2026, where people boo it and refuse to take that respect offered. So i'm sorry, but all this, "put it in the past and let's move forward" is very hard to be taken genuinely when all these things still exist, and are evidence that people don't actually want to move forward.

Invasion day is specifically tied to 26 January because that is the date Arthur Phillip declared the land in the name of the Kingdom. Indigenous people are saying, "change the date". Those words in and of itself, from them, suggests that they would not create issue on any other day. We have to be genuine with our efforts. Not just, "we changed the date, what more do you want". It's been 20 years since the apology, and we still have non First Nations people telling First Nations what they think they need and deserve.

Just because something is hard, doesn't mean you don't do it. Those arguments are tied to strawman fallacy. It's what conservatives and the right have done for a long time. "It won't change anything because there will be all these other things anyway". So because it's hard we shouldn't try, and put it the work needed?

It was a terrorist act. It should be charged as. The refusal to label it so, and the immediate deflection is evidence of the bias reporting, and systemic racism that exists.

Now, I'd love to keep engaging and discussing, but it has been very tiring trying to justify the humanity of people. So forgive me if I don't reply to you, but I don't think I can say anything I haven't already said, or provide any evidence or facts I haven't already, that is going to move the needle of though that many of you have. You seem rational, but there are many that are just stubborn and not here to actually discuss genuinely. Have a good evening.

 

[zimbos05]

Yes I'd be interested in hearing what 'patriots' like Beretta, jetsfan and sharkboy think about this bomb caper.

Clearly on the outrage scale flag burning is, like you said, higher up the list than a literal bomb thrown at first nations people and their supporters.

Other regulars have similarly been schtum about this too.

I honestly wouldn't be interested. Not sure rationality is a concept that exists in their sphere.

 

[Muz]

I honestly wouldn't be interested. Not sure rationality is a concept that exists in their sphere.

Well I'm not really interested, more a rhetorical flourish on my part. It's illustrative though that they've said fuck all about it, being patriots and all that.