Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

[LFC]

ex sky blue boy Graz

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

What makes him a turncoat?

What NPL or AU Champ side he played for for him to matter??...

 

[HonestSpursFan]

Copy and pasted from the other thread:

My proposal for pro/rel would be to have a 20-team Championship that acts as a proper league (not a group stage and finals tournament). The top NPL teams from each state and territory compete in a playoffs tournament for four spots in the Championship, while four Championship teams are relegated based on geography (and if too many are from one state then that state would either expand for that season or relegate extra teams). In the Championship, two teams are promoted to the A-League while one is promoted from the playoffs (which have the third through to sixth placed teams in them). In the A-League, three teams are relegated from what I have expanded to be a 15-team league. My proposed system provides a way for any club to be promoted and any club to be relegated. I would also change the season of all the divisions to run on the same schedule as the A-League (so the A-League, Championship and NPL alike run on the same schedule). This applies to both the men's and women's pyramids by the way.

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

Copy and pasted from the other thread:

My proposal for pro/rel would be to have a 20-team Championship that acts as a proper league (not a group stage and finals tournament). The top NPL teams from each state and territory compete in a playoffs tournament for four spots in the Championship, while four Championship teams are relegated based on geography (and if too many are from one state then that state would either expand for that season or relegate extra teams). In the Championship, two teams are promoted to the A-League while one is promoted from the playoffs (which have the third through to sixth placed teams in them). In the A-League, three teams are relegated from what I have expanded to be a 15-team league. My proposed system provides a way for any club to be promoted and any club to be relegated. I would also change the season of all the divisions to run on the same schedule as the A-League (so the A-League, Championship and NPL alike run on the same schedule). This applies to both the men's and women's pyramids by the way.

We dont care how we get there, as long as we can get there bc this current system is not benefiting anyone anymore! Your idea is solid but i worry about the numbers being too high to be sustainable from the get go (although your system above would be ideal giving full coverage country wide almost immediately and not allowing for avenues of resistence so it has my vote!)

My only other qualm with the above is that 3 pro rel each season may be too many.. i would think that one spot direct promotion to AL and 1 via playoff to drive life into all comps would be ideal and allow the least pushback across the board.

First steps needed imo are the disbanding of the APL (this is paramount to success) and to make Championship a full h&a system even if its with 8 teams for next year, then grow from there having bought time for all to take the new reality in!

 

[grazorblade]

We dont care how we get there, as long as we can get there bc this current system is not benefiting anyone anymore! Your idea is solid but i worry about the numbers being too high to be sustainable from the get go (although your system above would be ideal giving full coverage country wide almost immediately and not allowing for avenues of resistence so it has my vote!)

My only other qualm with the above is that 3 pro rel each season may be too many.. i would think that one spot direct promotion to AL and 1 via playoff to drive life into all comps would be ideal and allow the least pushback across the board.

First steps needed imo are the disbanding of the APL (this is paramount to success) and to make Championship a full h&a system even if its with 8 teams for next year, then grow from there having bought time for all to take the new reality in!

One thing that is so unpredictable is what the numbers look like in an open pyramid compared to a minor league system with disconnected leagues. At the moment it is a challenge getting a small 2nd tier of h and a with 10-
12 teams because crowds are probably averaging around 1000-1500 in a disconnected 2nd tier. Thats more than enough that it should still happen, but at present

However, it a connected league crowd averages probably go up to 1800-3000 (looking at mexicos experiment with p and r) which probably could handle a league of 20

As you say though, it doesnt matter how we get there.

Id be happy with 10 new teams called clive palmer fc and gina reinhart united if thats what it takes

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

One thing that is so unpredictable is what the numbers look like in an open pyramid compared to a minor league system with disconnected leagues. At the moment it is a challenge getting a small 2nd tier of h and a with 10-
12 teams because crowds are probably averaging around 1000-1500 in a disconnected 2nd tier. Thats more than enough that it should still happen, but at present

However, it a connected league crowd averages probably go up to 1800-3000 (looking at mexicos experiment with p and r) which probably could handle a league of 20

As you say though, it doesnt matter how we get there.

Id be happy with 10 new teams called clive palmer fc and gina reinhart united if thats what it takes

Right on the money as usual.... we just need a damned blueprint and we are all united overnight for the best of the game! We ve been yelling this from the rafters, cant be that hard to fathom for them! A workeable blueprint and all the rest falls in place!

We have the interest, we have the clubs, we can have the venues if we choose to be pragmatic, we have the money of we are conservative, we have the exposure the others dont, regionally and further, they can only dream of it, what we have to do is worry no more about some 'delusion of mainstream', of major event based on other codes, this is football from the ground up! No one has our code's saturation and we need to utilise it now!

 

[HappyGuus]

Copy and pasted from the other thread:

My proposal for pro/rel would be to have a 20-team Championship that acts as a proper league (not a group stage and finals tournament). The top NPL teams from each state and territory compete in a playoffs tournament for four spots in the Championship, while four Championship teams are relegated based on geography (and if too many are from one state then that state would either expand for that season or relegate extra teams). In the Championship, two teams are promoted to the A-League while one is promoted from the playoffs (which have the third through to sixth placed teams in them). In the A-League, three teams are relegated from what I have expanded to be a 15-team league. My proposed system provides a way for any club to be promoted and any club to be relegated. I would also change the season of all the divisions to run on the same schedule as the A-League (so the A-League, Championship and NPL alike run on the same schedule). This applies to both the men's and women's pyramids by the way.

I like it.

Are you saying align the entire pyramid, down to grassroots, with A-League in the summer? Although having them all aligned would be ideal, I think it might be a bridge too far for parents and kids to change seasons. It might greatly harm the one thing our sport holds the title of, participants. But maybe I'm worrying about nothing there.

The only way I can see the pyramid connected is with grassroots staying in winter, A-League staying in summer, and at least one tier inbetween starting inbetween those seasons (it should probably just be the Championship). Any other combination doesn't leave enough time, or too much time, between seasons for teams that get promoted or relegated. We need a division inbetween tier 1 and 3 that closes the gaps between seasons.

I wrote more about it here:

Looking at the seasons again, these are the four options as I see it:

1. If NST aligns with A-League (summer):
NPL clubs promoted to NST have a 36 week off-season.

NST clubs relegated to NPL - 40 week off-season.

This could mean that a team that is promoted to NST then relegated back to NPL would only be able to play one season of football over 113 weeks. It won't work.

2. If NST aligns with NPL (winter):
NST clubs promoted to A-League - 56 week off-season. NST would actually finish 4 weeks before the next A-League season starts, but as the NST (and all leagues) need a mandatory 6 week post-season rest break, it would be impossible to join A-League that season (and would require at least some sort of pre-season training as well).

A-League clubs relegated to NST - 40 week off-season.

This could mean that a team that is promoted to A-League then relegated back to NST would only be able to play one season of football over 125 weeks. It won't work.

3. If we sit the NST season between current A-League and NPL, then pro/rel with reasonable off-seasons are achievable:
NPL clubs promoted to NST - 26 week off-season.
NST clubs relegated to NPL - 10 week off-season.

NST clubs promoted to A-League - 26 week off-season.
A-League clubs relegated to NST - 10 week off-season.

4. The pyramid aligns neatly with Asia, Europe and A-Leagues, and we can head off to lunch early.


3 and 4 are the only realistic options as far as I can tell. Obviously, option 4 is a piece of piss. So I thought I'd have a crack at a calendar for option 3. This is if the Member Federations want to stay in winter and APL want to stay in summer.

I've done my best to consider transfer windows, Asian competitions, seasons, breaks, finals, cups etc. and I think it flows pretty nicely. I've moved A-League to start during the pre-AFL finals bye round; they can play all the low drawing matches during this period and sharpen their game in time for the Asian comps kicking off. The A-League finals conclude before the AFC finals start, somewhere around Anzac Day.

With the NST I originally had them breaking for the Christmas-New Year period. But then I thought, they'll be professional, so they can play through it like the other professionals. But the option is there to have that break, it won't affect the calendar. The NST has to start before the A-League season, not after, otherwise there won't be enough off-season (1 week in my calendar!) if a team is promoted. The transfer window mightn't be ideal for the NST, it's more in line with what APL want with extra time after Europe closes. But this isn't critical and the window can be shifted a few weeks earlier if required.

The League Cup (optional) and Australia Cup can be flexible around that time of year. When the League Cup group stage is finished and half the clubs are kicked out, then the Aus Cup can start. I've put the Aus Cup final during the week off after the NPL regular season and before their Champions League. The NPL season starts just a couple of weeks later, but this won't affect the federations too much.

If anyone has any thoughts or feedback let me know. I might be overlooking something really simple.

Here's a two year overview of how it could look:


View attachment 703

One issue with a 20 team Championship is cost. That's a hell of a lot of travel for the 2nd tier! I can only see 20 teams possibly working at A-League level but even that might be a stretch. I think the absolute max in each tier would be 18 and 16. 16 and 14 should be doable eventually. With 14 and 12 teams being the short term goal in tier 1 and 2. We actually should've been at 14 and 12 already, been such a disappointment. FA is taking the piss if they think we'll accept the group stage format for five years.

Then there's the question of promotion from NPL. Do we go complete open pyramid, or follow J-League's expansion model with criteria and standards being met first? I'm a bit torn on this one. But I'd like to think that the higher capacity teams would be more ambitious with an open pyramid and win their way up anyway.

I have to stop writing when I'm tired haha.

 

[HonestSpursFan]

I like it.

Are you saying align the entire pyramid, down to grassroots, with A-League in the summer? Although having them all aligned would be ideal, I think it might be a bridge too far for parents and kids to change seasons. It might greatly harm the one thing our sport holds the title of, participants. But maybe I'm worrying about nothing there.

The only way I can see the pyramid connected is with grassroots staying in winter, A-League staying in summer, and at least one tier inbetween starting inbetween those seasons (it should probably just be the Championship). Any other combination doesn't leave enough time, or too much time, between seasons for teams that get promoted or relegated. We need a division inbetween tier 1 and 3 that closes the gaps between seasons.

I wrote more about it here:




One issue with a 20 team Championship is cost. That's a hell of a lot of travel for the 2nd tier! I can only see 20 teams possibly working at A-League level but even that might be a stretch. I think the absolute max in each tier would be 18 and 16. 16 and 14 should be doable eventually. With 14 and 12 teams being the short term goal in tier 1 and 2. We actually should've been at 14 and 12 already, been such a disappointment. FA is taking the piss if they think we'll accept the group stage format for five years.

Then there's the question of promotion from NPL. Do we go complete open pyramid, or follow J-League's expansion model with criteria and standards being met first? I'm a bit torn on this one. But I'd like to think that the higher capacity teams would be more ambitious with an open pyramid and win their way up anyway.

I have to stop writing when I'm tired haha.

Great questions. I like the idea of having the amateur game in winter and the professional game in summer. I also like the idea of licensing like in Japan. Speaking of Japan, they're about to move to a summer schedule too.

 

[BA81]

Id be happy with 10 new teams called clive palmer fc and gina reinhart united if thats what it takes

As long as they’re renamed to something serious at the first opportunity, I hope

 

[BA81]

I like it.

Are you saying align the entire pyramid, down to grassroots, with A-League in the summer? Although having them all aligned would be ideal, I think it might be a bridge too far for parents and kids to change seasons. It might greatly harm the one thing our sport holds the title of, participants. But maybe I'm worrying about nothing there.

The only way I can see the pyramid connected is with grassroots staying in winter, A-League staying in summer, and at least one tier inbetween starting inbetween those seasons (it should probably just be the Championship). Any other combination doesn't leave enough time, or too much time, between seasons for teams that get promoted or relegated. We need a division inbetween tier 1 and 3 that closes the gaps between seasons.

I wrote more about it here:




One issue with a 20 team Championship is cost. That's a hell of a lot of travel for the 2nd tier! I can only see 20 teams possibly working at A-League level but even that might be a stretch. I think the absolute max in each tier would be 18 and 16. 16 and 14 should be doable eventually. With 14 and 12 teams being the short term goal in tier 1 and 2. We actually should've been at 14 and 12 already, been such a disappointment. FA is taking the piss if they think we'll accept the group stage format for five years.

Then there's the question of promotion from NPL. Do we go complete open pyramid, or follow J-League's expansion model with criteria and standards being met first? I'm a bit torn on this one. But I'd like to think that the higher capacity teams would be more ambitious with an open pyramid and win their way up anyway.

I have to stop writing when I'm tired haha.

A 20-team Championship(& A-League for that matter) is totally unnecessary, on top of being unworkably-unwieldy.

Ideally I would cap both tiers at 16 teams each; it’s a nice round number that served the AFL well for a long time. In saying that, I concede that 17 or 18 is likely more appropriate for ️'s purposes but 20 is too darned many IMHO.

 

[BA81]

Great questions. I like the idea of having the amateur game in winter and the professional game in summer. I also like the idea of licensing like in Japan. Speaking of Japan, they're about to move to a summer schedule too.

I’d certainly be in favour of switching only the top State NPL-tiers to an A-League&Championship-concurrent season while the rest of the pyramid remains in winter. In fact it’s an idea that then-South Melbourne coach Chris Taylor tabled back in the mid-late 2000s, but in hindsight the old-sokkah/new-football wounds were still much too raw for that to have worked then.

 

[Son of Sam]

I’d certainly be in favour of switching only the top State NPL-tiers to an A-League&Championship-concurrent season while the rest of the pyramid remains in winter. In fact it’s an idea that then-South Melbourne coach Chris Taylor tabled back in the mid-late 2000s, but in hindsight the old-sokkah/new-football wounds were still much too raw for that to have worked then.

The assertion about the New Football/Old soccer split still being raw is the cue for me to jump in here.

It REALLY was that bad then. There are elements of that now .... but the 'failure' of the A League over the last 10 years has meant that there is a union of sorts between the 2 camps.

But the structure of the A League means that all of this Pro/Rel stuff is fantasy land stuff.

Neither the ex NSL clubs nor the Tasmania's of this world can raise the money needed for a licence, and even if they can, how are they going to maintain an A League club with its exhorbitant costs?

The existing franchise holders have paid massive amounts of money. They will not accept changes to the structure of the current competition that would allow new entities to enter with less onerous terms.

So does the A League have to fail for the game to progress? That's far too awful a scenario, (even for me!) to contemplate.

We are stuck. In fact, the only chances of progress in the short term would be for the NSD to progress to a full Home and Away system. But when would it be played? Can a WA team be involved? etc etc Lot's of questions here too.

You can see why South Melbourne jumped at the opportunity to play in the new OFC league.

They are sick of the inertia in our game.

 

[HonestSpursFan]

The assertion about the New Football/Old soccer split still being raw is the cue for me to jump in here.

It REALLY was that bad then. There are elements of that now .... but the 'failure' of the A League over the last 10 years has meant that there is a union of sorts between the 2 camps.

But the structure of the A League means that all of this Pro/Rel stuff is fantasy land stuff.

Neither the ex NSL clubs nor the Tasmania's of this world can raise the money needed for a licence, and even if they can, how are they going to maintain an A League club with its exhorbitant costs?

The existing franchise holders have paid massive amounts of money. They will not accept changes to the structure of the current competition that would allow new entities to enter with less onerous terms.

So does the A League have to fail for the game to progress? That's far too awful a scenario, (even for me!) to contemplate.

We are stuck. In fact, the only chances of progress in the short term would be for the NSD to progress to a full Home and Away system. But when would it be played? Can a WA team be involved? etc etc Lot's of questions here too.

You can see why South Melbourne jumped at the opportunity to play in the new OFC league.

They are sick of the inertia in our game.

I feel like South Melbourne would have more fans than Macarthur or Western United ever did. This means more revenue potential from crowds, merch, etc. Over time I'm sure clubs will attract investors who can facilitate promotion and relegation. Even Fiji has a pro/rel system and we don't.

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

I feel like South Melbourne would have more fans than Macarthur or Western United ever did. This means more revenue potential from crowds, merch, etc. Over time I'm sure clubs will attract investors who can facilitate promotion and relegation. Even Fiji has a pro/rel system and we don't.

100%... but that doesnt eleviate the spot on point Sam makes that for anything to be feasible, it has long been argued a more pragmatic investment model needs to be in place epsecially in the current climate of the game!

 

[grazorblade]

The assertion about the New Football/Old soccer split still being raw is the cue for me to jump in here.

It REALLY was that bad then. There are elements of that now .... but the 'failure' of the A League over the last 10 years has meant that there is a union of sorts between the 2 camps.

Cant speak for others but my opinion has evolved over the years mostly due to getting to know fans of nsl clubs, learning about the game and its history

A league struggles could be a factor, i suppose if we were producing heaps of harry kewell level players id count that as big evidence in favour of the status quo

 

[BA81]

I feel like South Melbourne would have more fans than Macarthur or Western United ever did. This means more revenue potential from crowds, merch, etc. Over time I'm sure clubs will attract investors who can facilitate promotion and relegation. Even Fiji has a pro/rel system and we don't.

I swear, if Pakistan ends up introducing an interconnected top-flight pyramid before we do, game here’s well&truly fvcking gone:

 

[BA81]

A-League struggles could be a factor, I suppose if we were producing heaps of Harry Kewell-level players I’d count that as big evidence in favour of the status quo

I too would’ve once. Thankfully, never again

 

[Hellenic_blue&white]

I swear, if Pakistan ends up introducing an interconnected top-flight pyramid before we do, game here’s well&truly fvcking gone:

Have they been advised that leg spin is something totally different in this code??

 

[grazorblade]

I too would’ve once. Thankfully, never again

I mean, if there were 5 harry kewells every year are you saying it would make no difference to thinking "oh the a league model is doing something right"

that of course is a hypothetical since the opposite happened under the a league model

 

[BA81]

I mean, if there were 5 harry kewells every year are you saying it would make no difference to thinking "oh the a league model is doing something right"

that of course is a hypothetical since the opposite happened under the a league model

I’d like to think I would’ve still become an advocate for pro/rel in ️; probably further down the line than when I did, but as you said, it’s hypothetical. Besides, this A-League system was never designed to produce new Golden Generations, if we’re being blunt.