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Match stats/analysis for recent Socceroo games

Decentric said:
Some really good analytical work done by Grazor and JS96 on the Ven game.

I’m glad Popa has tried so many players in his tenure. At least this debacle has occurred in a friendly.
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I suspect I’m in the minority here, but I actually don’t like the fact that Popovic has used so many players. We only have limited number of matches prior to the World Cup, and he had 8 matches with the team in qualifying so he should have then had a reasonable idea of the players he wanted. Sure, look at those who really deserve a chance (eg M Toure, Balard and maybe a small handful of others) but these games since qualifying also needed to be used to build combinations, teamwork, familiarity with each other, etc. And I don’t think this has really occurred with all the chopping and changing seen in the past 5 matches.
 
Keeper66 said:
I suspect I’m in the minority here, but I actually don’t like the fact that Popovic has used so many players. We only have limited number of matches prior to the World Cup, and he had 8 matches with the team in qualifying so he should have then had a reasonable idea of the players he wanted. Sure, look at those who really deserve a chance (eg M Toure, Balard and maybe a small handful of others) but these games since qualifying also needed to be used to build combinations, teamwork, familiarity with each other, etc. And I don’t think this has really occurred with all the chopping and changing seen in the past 5 matches.
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Yeah i have mixed feelings. The younger players are on a trajectory to be better so we have some rewards, but poppa has club football style tactics so there is benefits to players having time together
 
Keeper66 said:
I suspect I’m in the minority here, but I actually don’t like the fact that Popovic has used so many players. We only have limited number of matches prior to the World Cup, and he had 8 matches with the team in qualifying so he should have then had a reasonable idea of the players he wanted. Sure, look at those who really deserve a chance (eg M Toure, Balard and maybe a small handful of others) but these games since qualifying also needed to be used to build combinations, teamwork, familiarity with each other, etc. And I don’t think this has really occurred with all the chopping and changing seen in the past 5 matches.
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Not sure you are in a minority, Keeper?

Many share your view off forum.

I'm keen to have evaluated as many players as possible. Popa has seen many players in camp. It also gives players like Okon Jr a guide of where to improve. I was astonished he played for the Socceroos after 3 senior games. I don't think it is nepotism either that Okon Jr playing, as Popa has sons who play pro football - I think?

I haven't looked at enough data yet, but I'm thinking some of the new players tried in the last few games, look like starters in the imminent future.

I was surprised, but despite losing against the USA, the second half was a decent shift.

Aus was on top for the last 15 mins, but live most of the rest of the Ven game looked awful!
 
Decentric said:
Not sure you are in a minority, Keeper?

Many share your view off forum.

I'm keen to have evaluated as many players as possible. Popa has seen many players in camp. It also gives players like Okon Jr a guide of where to improve. I was astonished he played for the Socceroos after 3 senior games. I don't think it is nepotism either that Okon Jr playing, as Popa has sons who play pro football - I think?

I haven't looked at enough data yet, but I'm thinking some of the new players tried in the last few games, look like starters in the imminent future.

I was surprised, but despite losing against the USA, the second half was a decent shift.

Aus was on top for the last 15 mins, but live most of the rest of the Ven game looked awful!
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Unlike our other cm options, Okon doesnt need to be in a good position to be effective and can recieve the ball even when a marker is close! He could be useful if he learns poppas system even at this early stage of his career
 
grazorblade said:
Ill have a careful look at older roo games under poppa but my impression is that when he played a lot of players who were familiar with his system they moved very quickly into a position to recieve the ball when there was a turnover. They also knew where their teamate would be when making that first pass after a turnover. I slowed it down whenever there was a turnover against V and we would sometimes have a player dallying on the ball and having no options because we hadnt yet mover out of our 541 position with 8 players behind the ball carrier. I suspect poppa would want his players to make the transitions between 541 and 343 quickly and learn his pressing triggers. Thats why i call it a complicated game plan on the pod, more remincent of club football than international football
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I think it is quite easy to evolve in Popa's 3-4-3, 5-2-3 and 5-4-1.

Two players moving a line back in each change isn't that difficult - in theory.

After you mentioned it I will have a look at passing lanes being opened and Roo off the ball movement in the Attacking Transitions. It is hard work looking at play off the ball most of the time!
 
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Decentric said:
I think it is quite easy to evolve in Popa's 3-4-3, 5-2-3 and 5-4-1.

Two players moving a line back in each change isn't that difficult - in theory.

After you mentioned it I will have a look at passing lanes being opened and Roo off the ball movement in the Attacking Transitions. It is hard work looking at play off the ball all most of the time!
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Yeah I was focusing on this aspect of play on replay. Will rewatch the indonesia game for comparison to double check my intuition

I agree its easy to evolve at club level but suspect its hard at international level. I noticed how tactically simple even powerhouse teams were in the euro!
 
grazorblade said:
Unlike our other cm options, Okon doesnt need to be in a good position to be effective and can recieve the ball even when a marker is close! He could be useful if he learns poppas system even at this early stage of his career
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Any player needs effective body position to be effective.

O'Neill can play in little time and space too.

Both players don't need as much time and space on the ball as some other other Roos. I'll have to look closely in the replay, because we didn't keep the ball well, but Ven committed more physical effort in their Squeezing.
 
Decentric said:
Any player needs effective body position to be effective.

O'Neill can play in little time and space too.

Both players don't need as much time and space on the ball as some other other Roos. I'll have to look closely in the replay, because we didn't keep the ball well, but Ven committed more physical effort in their Squeezing.
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Look forward to your thoughts on the replay as always
 
Popovic has selected many but many haven't gotten time on the pitch or just enter one squad and disappear. The issue is he's used the wrong players at the wrong time. There was nothing to justify Brattan, Caceres and Borrello. The number expanded with injury replacements for Irvine, McGree and Goodwin. To think we went 6 months without the former two and didn't really notice a gap.

Injuries haven't helped but neither has the toying with our best brains in Robertson, Segecic and Kalik and then an overreliance on Miller, O'Neill and Boyle to a smaller extent which has led to mass complacency.

Perhaps a few fortunate results have masked some underlying issues. The players still hardly see to know what to do, there's not the biggest amount of belief out there and the selection policy has zilch to do with merit and the older bunch wouldn't dare call it out only to be culled next as they're all on borrowed time themselves.
 
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Watching old poppa games we actually start to spread out and go into a new formation a fraction of a second before a turnover showing anticipation. So i think im right
 
grazorblade said:
Look forward to your thoughts on the replay as always
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It is going to take time to do it, as I'm now incorporating passing.

Passing - was in response to some good questions and comments posed by other G and G posters. Also, that many of Aus's recent opponents have Squeezed a lot more - hence making Roo CBs and DMs have to work a lot harder. They don't get all those unpressured passes they do against Deep Defensive Blocks in the previous round for qualifying. Against the likes of Saudi, Japan, Indo, then subsequently NZ, Canada, USA and Ven, they have to work harder on the ball.

Moreover, in the Ven game I have to look at the ultimate result - a failure against the 50th ranked FIFA team not going to the World Cup! I'm not sure there is much to look forward to in identifying better qualities of Aus players?
 
Keeper66 said:
I suspect I’m in the minority here, but I actually don’t like the fact that Popovic has used so many players. We only have limited number of matches prior to the World Cup, and he had 8 matches with the team in qualifying so he should have then had a reasonable idea of the players he wanted. Sure, look at those who really deserve a chance (eg M Toure, Balard and maybe a small handful of others) but these games since qualifying also needed to be used to build combinations, teamwork, familiarity with each other, etc. And I don’t think this has really occurred with all the chopping and changing seen in the past 5 matches.
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Agree.
 
JS96 said:
Quantity is large but Popovic has had a lot not get time on the pitch or just enter one squad. The issue is he's used the wrong players at the wrong time. There was nothing to justify Brattan, Caceres and Borrello. The number expanded with injury replacements for Irvine, McGree and Goodwin. To think we went 6 months without the former two and didn't really notice a gap.

Injuries haven't helped but neither has the toying with our best brains in Robertson, Segecic and Kalik and then an overreliance on Miller, O'Neill and Boyle to a smaller extent which has led to mass complacency.

Perhaps a few fortunate results have masked some underlying issues. The players still hardly see to know what to do, there's not the biggest amount of belief out there and the selection policy has zilch to do with merit and the older bunch wouldn't dare call it out only to be culled next as they're all on borrowed time themselves.
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Agree in general but when is the hype about Robertson going to subside? Yes he once was on the books at Man city but he's the same age as Doku and can't make a League 1 starting 11. He is not the answer to anything.
 
Frankly Speaking said:
Agree in general but when is the hype about Robertson going to subside? Yes he once was on the booked at Man city but he's the same age as Doku and can't make a League 1 starting 11. He is not the answer to anything.
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I'm not sure how much he's played recently due to fitness but he can do things with minimal time that others need ages to build up to. The way he was playing pre injury was very good.
 
JS96 said:
I'm not sure how much he's played recently due to fitness but he can do things with minimal time that others need ages to build up to. The way he was playing pre injury was very good.
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Yes but he's still in League 1. He may be the next Jamie Vardy but his trajectory has been downward. When he left city not one EPL club came calling, which is significant.
 
JS96 said:
Quantity is large but Popovic has had a lot not get time on the pitch or just enter one squad. The issue is he's used the wrong players at the wrong time. There was nothing to justify Brattan, Caceres and Borrello. The number expanded with injury replacements for Irvine, McGree and Goodwin. To think we went 6 months without the former two and didn't really notice a gap.

Injuries haven't helped but neither has the toying with our best brains in Robertson, Segecic and Kalik and then an overreliance on Miller, O'Neill and Boyle to a smaller extent which has led to mass complacency.

Perhaps a few fortunate results have masked some underlying issues. The players still hardly see to know what to do, there's not the biggest amount of belief out there and the selection policy has zilch to do with merit and the older bunch wouldn't dare call it out only to be culled next as they're all on borrowed time themselves.
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Over a long time you tend to always identify high qualities in players not tested in international football. Also, you tend to be harsh on existing players, JS96.

IMO you underestimate international experience. One has to know one's own game well, before one can organise others around them.

Having said this, I love what you bring to G and G! Passion for the Socceroos! And constant discussion material, mate!

Moreover, over our last cycle of games despite inexperience in international football, it is now almost the case that new keepers, Izzo and Beach, plus newer outfielders, Circati, Bos, Balard, Iran, Mo Toure, Italiano, are mounting a case for starting line up places against some types of teams. I laud Popa for trying so many new players. I'm sure you've called for all their selections, JS. They've worked out well too.

We have an entire new generation of players, probably under about 25, who have a much higher average of ability than their many of their seniors. They have had better development coaching. However, they are a bit young and inexperienced for World Cup football.

The two players that I've previously alluded to who are doing well in UEFA club football, but according to my comprehensive data, are not playing up to expectations for the Roos - are Hrustic and Boyle.

One surprise is Kye Rowles at Left Wing Back. True - when everybody says he does little spectacular going forward like Bos, even Behich to a lesser extent.

Defensively though, he has tended to put his direct wing opponents, like Canada's Buchanan, a Spanish top flight player, out of the game! It tended to be Burgess who Buchanan beat 1v1 in dribbling actions.

On the right flank as RWB, Italiano hasn't been able to achieve this Rowles' defensive outcome at all, but has been slick on the ball in tight spaces and under a lot of pressure. He has improved a lot recently - compared to where he was as a RB for the Aus u23s. IMO he is decisively better than Strain, Karacic and Geraint Jones .

Without looking at all the data I will access via replay, Goodwin did some good things going forwards against Ven, but defensively he lacked Rowles' solidity.

Off the top of my head, and I often change opinion a bit as I access more data from the replay, the football problems were a Roo team problem against Ven..

1. Our lack of intensity in our Defensive Transitions in the 6-10sec period when we lost the ball and Ven regained it.

2. This is based a bit on on JS and Grazor's analysis from their replay views - our lack of movement off the ball to open passing lanes to support the ball carrier in our Attacking Transitions when Ven lost the ball, plus their more intense Squeezing of our players when they lost it, in this 6-10 second Roo Attacking Transition phase of play.

3. Our focus on team compact defensive shape most the time in Ball Possession Opposition, as opposed to Squeezing their space by closing down Venezuela. Aus Squeezed the space a few times in our Attacking Third, and it worked well.

Note:
KNVB - specifically identify Attacking and Defensive Transition in their football jargon.
Aus NC ( with French, Spanish, German methodology too) just use Transition for both main Moments Of The Game.
 
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Frankly Speaking said:
Agree in general but when is the hype about Robertson going to subside? Yes he once was on the books at Man city but he's the same age as Doku and can't make a League 1 starting 11. He is not the answer to anything.
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I think Robertson is unfit ATM - according to Popa.

From the glimpse I've seen of him against Ecuador, Robbo looks to be a good technician.
 
Frankly Speaking said:
Yes but he's still in League 1. He may be the next Jamie Vardy but his trajectory has been downward. When he left city not one EPL club came calling, which is significant.
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He was the best in Championship basket case and he didn't want to move on due to some fitness issues and not uprooting again. He was fine in the Championship at the time.
 
Decentric said:
Over a long time you tend to always identify high qualities in players not tested in international football. Also, you tend to be harsh on existing players, JS96.

IMO you underestimate international experience. One has to know one's own game well, before one can organise others around them.

Having said this, I love what you bring to G and G! Passion for the Socceroos! And constant discussion material, mate!

Moreover, over our last cycle of games despite inexperience in international football, it is now almost the case that new keepers, Izzo and Beach, plus newer outfielders, Circati, Bos, Balard, Iran, Mo Toure, Italiano, are mounting a case for starting line up places against some types of teams. I laud Popa for trying so many new players. I'm sure you've called for all their selections.

We have an entire new generation of players, probably under about 25, who have a much higher average of ability than their many of their seniors. They have had better development coaching. However, they are a bit young and inexperienced for World Cup football.

The two players that I've previously alluded to who are doing well in UEFA club football, who according to my comprehensive data, are not playing up to expectations for the Roos - are Hrustic and Boyle.

One surprise is Kye Rowles at Left Wing Back. True - when everybody says he does little spectacular going forward like Bos, even Behich to a lesser extent. Defensively though, he has tended to put his direct wing opponets, like Canada's Buchanan, a Spanish top flight player, out of the game! It tended to be Burgess who Buchanan beat 1v1 in dribbling actions.

On the right flank as RWB, Italiano hasn't been able to achieve this Rowles' defensive outcome at all, but has been slick on the ball in tight spaces and under a lot of pressure. He has improved a lot recently - compared to where he was as a RB for the Aus u23s. IMO he is decisively better than Strain, Karacic and Geraint Jones .

Without looking at all the data I will access via replay, Goodwin did some good things going forwards against Ven, but defensively he lacked Rowles' solidity.

Off the top of my head, and I often change opinion a bit as I access more data from the replay, the football problems were a Roo team problem.

1. Our lack of intensity in our Defensive Transitions in the 6-10sec period when we lost the ball and Ven regained it.

2. This is based a bit on on JS and Grazor's analysis from their replay views - our lack of movement off the ball to open passing lanes to support the ball carrier in our Attacking Transitions when Ven lost the ball, plus their more intense Squeezing of our players when they lost it, in this 6-10 second Roo Attacking Transition phase of play.

Note:
KNVB - specifically identify Attacking and Defensive Transition in their football jargon.
Aus NC ( with French, Spanish, German methodology too) just use Transition for both main Moments Of The Game.
Click to expand...
All very valid points but I'd expect after a number of caps, a player would be very stable at international level. If someone still looks lost or isn't performing well then we need to try others. We've seen it already that Toure, Balard and Bos are of the grade and more.

I can see O'Neill's value but my gripe is still and over reliance on him and using Miller, the worst technically able football in a long time, as our main path of attack.

I think many foreign coaches would come in and drop Miller immediately.
 
JS96 said:
All very valid points but I'd expect after a number of caps, a player would be very stable at international level. If someone still looks lost or isn't performing well then we need to try others. We've seen it already that Toure, Balard and Bos are of the grade and more.

I can see O'Neill's value but my gripe is still and over reliance on him and using Miller, the worst technically able football in a long time, as our main path of attack.

I think many foreign coaches would come in and drop Miller immediately.
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yep and yep.
 
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