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Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

theFOOTBALLlover said:
I was watching the Breaking Barriers video.. turned it off at A1 clubs playing each other twice and playing A2 clubs once. We love reinventing the wheel in Australia. Open the pyramid, have proper and clear criteria for each division like the Japanese FA made for J1-3 and lets get the ball rolling.
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Can't stand how he is constantly referring to "product" and "value capture" and "commodity" just makes me sick...
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
How about having a proposal for promotion/relegation that INCLUDES relegation? This whole "concept" is a mechanism to increase license value by protecting current franchisees from EVER having to drop below a controlled, professional level, It is pro/rel in name only...

You watch football around the world, in often remarkable countries , some I have never even heard of.. Can you tell me (with the exception of the US and currently Mexico) in which other country is a top division club given absolute immunity from being relegated down to the third, fourth, fifth tier of football?
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I said it would have relegation, that’s why I mentioned different tiers.

In some countries they have fixed pyramids that only allow relegation to and from a few divisions (e.g. Fiji with their Premier League and Senior League) but seeing as we’ve got the NPL that would mean we can have promotion and relegation all the way up and down.
 
HonestSpursFan said:
I said it would have relegation, that’s why I mentioned different tiers.

In some countries they have fixed pyramids that only allow relegation to and from a few divisions (e.g. Fiji with their Premier League and Senior League) but seeing as we’ve got the NPL that would mean we can have promotion and relegation all the way up and down.
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Yes mate YOU may have said it (pretty much every football fan in Australia may have said it) but it is noticeably absent in Matt's proposal is my point...
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Im not trying to diminish your post but its NOT really rocket science is it? If the APL just got the fuck out of the way and the franchises were willing to accept that, if they want the sport to grow, they have accept the jeopardy of potential relegation then it can start next year.

Lets be real 1-2 Aleague clubs would be yo yo, the rest would NEVER even come close to going down... they are just dopey investors that dont understand football.
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It's not diminishing it - it's proving my point - it's NOT rocket science.

The only addition to my keys to the mansion that I didn't mention in that post - though I've said this elsewhere - geography should not be a barrier to P/R. That's one thing that the Football360 doc has made clear, although in their argument it's about cost. For me, as you all know very well, it's about fairness and discrimination.

Essentially FNSW and Capital Football need a border restructure to account for that (and to an extent, NNSW and QLD as well).

For the sake of keeping everything in one post/area and not directing anyone to other threads - geography should only matter in WHERE to put clubs, not that they can't be put anywhere. If a club meets that Tier 3 licencing/requirements in my plan, then they are placed in the closest applicable NPL pyramid (which is what the border restructure would essentially cover) and is why I also noted that the requirements need to be applied nationwide (which - I understand was the original premise of the NPL branding in the mid 2010's)

The attached images below show these borders - which in effect are anything within the boundary is closest to that capital city than any other.

So for example, a club in Albany WA meets whatever the requirements are - I'm just going to arbitrarily list some examples of what some could be (so no they aren't my policies): stadium/ground requirements, youth academy requirements, financial and business/organisational requirements, coaching licence requirements. They meet these requirements, and they should essentially be accepted into the WA NPL pyramid regardless of the fact that it's 4-5 hours drive away. They should have every right to be there given they met the hypothetical requirements.

If clubs don't meet those requirements, or fail to keep up with them? Well, then they're removed, or they don't get in the NPL pyramid, simple as that.

While I say that means said hypothetical Albany club should be accepted regardless, I'd understand if there were then league limits etc - so for example in NSW, let's say the current 3 league system remains - that would mean clubs below that level could meet those requirements but not be in the pyramid. At that point it should be working with the FA to determine a promotion mechanism, whether it's league expansion, creating an additional tier/league, or incorporating promotion to a mechanism such as the Champion of Champions post-season tournament.

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NicCarBel said:
It's not diminishing it - it's proving my point - it's NOT rocket science.

The only addition to my keys to the mansion that I didn't mention in that post - though I've said this elsewhere - geography should not be a barrier to P/R. That's one thing that the Football360 doc has made clear, although in their argument it's about cost. For me, as you all know very well, it's about fairness and discrimination.

Essentially FNSW and Capital Football need a border restructure to account for that (and to an extent, NNSW and QLD as well).

For the sake of keeping everything in one post/area and not directing anyone to other threads - geography should only matter in WHERE to put clubs, not that they can't be put anywhere. If a club meets that Tier 3 licencing/requirements in my plan, then they are placed in the closest applicable NPL pyramid (which is what the border restructure would essentially cover) and is why I also noted that the requirements need to be applied nationwide (which - I understand was the original premise of the NPL branding in the mid 2010's)

The attached images below show these borders - which in effect are anything within the boundary is closest to that capital city than any other.

So for example, a club in Albany WA meets whatever the requirements are - I'm just going to arbitrarily list some examples of what some could be (so no they aren't my policies): stadium/ground requirements, youth academy requirements, financial and business/organisational requirements, coaching licence requirements. They meet these requirements, and they should essentially be accepted into the WA NPL pyramid regardless of the fact that it's 4-5 hours drive away. They should have every right to be there given they met the hypothetical requirements.

If clubs don't meet those requirements, or fail to keep up with them? Well, then they're removed, or they don't get in the NPL pyramid, simple as that.

While I say that means said hypothetical Albany club should be accepted regardless, I'd understand if there were then league limits etc - so for example in NSW, let's say the current 3 league system remains - that would mean clubs below that level could meet those requirements but not be in the pyramid. At that point it should be working with the FA to determine a promotion mechanism, whether it's league expansion, creating an additional tier/league, or incorporating promotion to a mechanism such as the Champion of Champions post-season tournament.

View attachment 9247
View attachment 9248
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Remind me again what this map shows?
 
Kitwally said:
Remind me again what this map shows?
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So it's using every member federation's capital city (list below for reference) with the borders set so that each region contains the area that is closest to that capital city, than any other.

WA - Perth
NT - Darwin
QLD - Brisbane
NNSW - Newcastle
NSW - Sydney
CF - Canberra
VIC - Melbourne
SA - Adelaide

TAS obviously not included because island, so would be their own space as it is now.
 
NicCarBel said:
So it's using every member federation's capital city (list below for reference) with the borders set so that each region contains the area that is closest to that capital city, than any other.

WA - Perth
NT - Darwin
QLD - Brisbane
NNSW - Newcastle
NSW - Sydney
CF - Canberra
VIC - Melbourne
SA - Adelaide

TAS obviously not included because island, so would be their own space as it is now.
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Bit off topic, but just dumb imo these days that Newcastle/northern nsw have their own fed. I know there’s historic reasons for it but it’s essentially a satellite city of Sydney ala Wollongong ffs. Newcastle and Wollongong relationship to Sydney is comparable to Geelongs to Melbourne. And it just results in a lower standard of football. Both would benefit from a reunion imo. Almost all other state feds have cover areas far further from their capital city ffs. Just work it out

And btw to add more weirdness to it, Newcastle jets play in the nsw league system, not the northern nsw one
 
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Glenardo said:
Bit off topic, but just dumb imo these days that Newcastle/northern nsw have their own fed. I know there’s historic reasons for it but it’s essentially a satellite city of Sydney ala Wollongong ffs. And just results in a lower standard of football. Both would benefit from a reunion imo. Almost all other state feds have cover areas far further from their capital city ffs. Just work it out

And btw to add more weirdness to it, Newcastle jets play in the nsw league system, not the northern nsw one
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I wouldn't mind that - would be happy for Newcastle, Macquarie and Hunter regions of NNSW to be considered "Metro", and then the rest of NNSW to become individual associations a la the rest of NSW.

NSW needs a big overhaul outside of Sydney tbh. Let's say the above happens, I would love for there to be officially 4 branches (the usual 3 that are officially disbanded, but still kind of there, and the rest of NNSW would become the fourth). Each branch has a "Premier League" (Western NSW already has this in place, and the Wagga Wagga Premier League/Pascoe Cup is unofficially a Riverina one) that should be theoretically on paper each considered on par with the metro association Premier Leagues (Granville X-League, etc). Would mean 21 "Premier Leagues" across NSW (I think 22 officially, but NWS and Hills run a combined Premier League from this year by the looks of it)
 
Glenardo said:
Bit off topic, but just dumb imo these days that Newcastle/northern nsw have their own fed. I know there’s historic reasons for it but it’s essentially a satellite city of Sydney ala Wollongong ffs. Newcastle and Wollongong relationship to Sydney is comparable to Geelongs to Melbourne. And it just results in a lower standard of football. Both would benefit from a reunion imo. Almost all other state feds have cover areas far further from their capital city ffs. Just work it out

And btw to add more weirdness to it, Newcastle jets play in the nsw league system, not the northern nsw one
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Northern NSW can be a 6 or 7 hour drive from Sydney (or even longer), so how can they be in NPL NSW? More NPL on planes?
 
Kitwally said:
Northern NSW can be a 6 or 7 hour drive from Sydney (or even longer), so how can they be in NPL NSW? More NPL on planes?
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Newcastle isn’t to be fair. Further north I know it’s not ideal but Mildura is further from Melbourne..cairns is much further from Brisbane..Broome Is much much further from Perth, Alice Springs is further from Darwin, and they don’t need their own federation
 
Glenardo said:
Newcastle isn’t to be fair. Further north I know it’s not ideal but Mildura is further from Melbourne..cairns is much further from Brisbane..Broome Is much much further from Perth, Alice Springs is further from Darwin, and they don’t need their own federation
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Under my re-distribution map, Mildura ends up falling into the Adelaide catchment area
Kitwally said:
All true but do they have teams in their respective state/territory NPLs?
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Good point. Theoretically Mildura would be allowed to. Victoria has a lot of country towns competing in the pyramid (benefits to having 10 tiers I suppose) such as Shepparton, Ballarat, Albury, Morwell, etc. Granted, that is a lot closer - but the point is, if you are going to close off areas of your federation catchment area to your league system solely off geography, then well... they shouldn't be in your catchment area. Either more of them need to be set up, or there needs to be hard-defined areas so that no area is excluded.
 
Kitwally said:
All true but do they have teams in their respective state/territory NPLs?
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NPL Queensland did until a few years ago. Cairns would be great for the NST if they had the money.

Farina said a Cairns-based team in either the A-League or the second-tier National Premier League (NPL) would "undoubtedly" help develop talent.
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www.abc.net.au

Once a soccer hotbed, Cairns cries out for more elite action

Several Socceroos and Matildas stars have emerged from Far North Queensland but those involved with the game say the lack of an elite-level side from Cairns could be holding player development back.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
Glenardo said:
Bit off topic, but just dumb imo these days that Newcastle/northern nsw have their own fed. I know there’s historic reasons for it but it’s essentially a satellite city of Sydney ala Wollongong ffs. Newcastle and Wollongong relationship to Sydney is comparable to Geelongs to Melbourne. And it just results in a lower standard of football. Both would benefit from a reunion imo. Almost all other state feds have cover areas far further from their capital city ffs. Just work it out
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Newcastle is not a satellite city of Sydney. Our versions of Geelong are the Central Coast and Wollongong. I think it still exists because of regional NSW, but then Queensland oddly only has one federation.
Glenardo said:
And btw to add more weirdness to it, Newcastle jets play in the nsw league system, not the northern nsw one
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This I agree with you on. The Jets should play in the NNSW league system.
 
Glenardo said:
Newcastle isn’t to be fair. Further north I know it’s not ideal but Mildura is further from Melbourne..cairns is much further from Brisbane..Broome Is much much further from Perth, Alice Springs is further from Darwin, and they don’t need their own federation
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Mildura is further from Melbourne than Newcastle is from Sydney yes, but NNSW also has the North Coast, the Northern Tablelands and the Orana.
 
HonestSpursFan said:
Newcastle is not a satellite city of Sydney. Our versions of Geelong are the Central Coast and Wollongong. I think it still exists because of regional NSW, but then Queensland oddly only has one federation.

This I agree with you on. The Jets should play in the NNSW league system.
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Agree to disagree. For sure if has it’s own identity and history but the nsw gov consider it to be part of the greater urban nsw region and it’s administered as such re transport, housing etc.

In any case, I concede you could also argue against that definition. Pretty arbitrary at the end of the day. Anyway, we’re in in the weeds here.

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Glenardo said:
Agree to disagree. For sure if has it’s own identity and history but the nsw gov consider it to be part of the greater urban nsw region and it’s administered as such re transport, housing etc.

In any case, I concede you could also argue against that definition. Pretty arbitrary at the end of the day. Anyway, we’re in in the weeds here.

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But then there’s the North Coast, the Northern Tablelands and the Orana.
 
Just having another look at the FIFA second and third division global comparison document. Some of the stats from the leagues around the world:

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