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Match stats/analysis for recent Socceroo games

grazorblade said:
I wonder if short, physically remedial players are better off going to asia or south america. Europe may be more technically advanced than us, but they are way more physically advanced. We've seen euro clubs struggle to break down defences and they may be underemphasizing flair. I dont want to overstate things, a european team will probably win the world cup and it is definitely the highest level. But I do think there is a bit of group think in europe about what makes a good player

Id back a tilio/arzani/nisbet against a deep block over much higher calibre players. Its useful to have that sort of player in your squad, but that profile of player really struggles to crack europe
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Nathan burns was the same.
 
Regista said:
Very interesting and comprehensive analysis here Socceroos Group Stage Open Play Technical Review
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This analysis was fantastic. I think the coaching revolution, trends in the a league and the national curriculum has meant that there really havent been good breakdowns of poppas style of play beyond the very crude "park the bus and counter".

It was interesting to learn that the press isnt just doing triggers but trying to force play wode even high up the pitch. It was also interesting to learn that a defender blocks one half of the goal and the gk another. There was a lot of takeaways there. Our defensive aggression improving each match ia interesting too
 
grazorblade said:
This analysis was fantastic. I think the coaching revolution, trends in the a league and the national curriculum has meant that there really havent been good breakdowns of poppas style of play beyond the very crude "park the bus and counter".

It was interesting to learn that the press isnt just doing triggers but trying to force play wode even high up the pitch. It was also interesting to learn that a defender blocks one half of the goal and the gk another. There was a lot of takeaways there. Our defensive aggression improving each match ia interesting too
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The defense is fantastic, robust, disciplined and getting better. But it was pretty bleak reading regarding our attack. What were your takeaways there? What do we need to tweak?
 
Quicky said:
The defense is fantastic, robust, disciplined and getting better. But it was pretty bleak reading regarding our attack. What were your takeaways there? What do we need to tweak?
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Im curious how similar this is to how he coached wsw?

Remember they were getting 0 all draws for ages before their attack improved. We could realistically just be a work in progress until the asian cup.
 
grazorblade said:
This analysis was fantastic. I think the coaching revolution, trends in the a league and the national curriculum has meant that there really havent been good breakdowns of poppas style of play beyond the very crude "park the bus and counter".

It was interesting to learn that the press isnt just doing triggers but trying to force play wode even high up the pitch. It was also interesting to learn that a defender blocks one half of the goal and the gk another. There was a lot of takeaways there. Our defensive aggression improving each match ia interesting too
Click to expand...
Yes smaller players with quick feet and ability to change direction can disrupt a low block.However for this tournament a player like Arzani or Nisbet would not have fitted into Poppa's style.
As you said the idea of the press pushing opponents wide was a eye opener for me.
Even though Poppa's game plan limits our attacking options I have much more respect for his coaching nous in the way he has set up the defence .For the Asian Cup hopefully he can work on the disconnect between our midfield and our attack.
 
This whole debate tends to sort of drift to binaries in Australia and very (central and northern) Eurocentric perspectives. We tend to talk as if athleticism, size, aggression and, tactical discipline sit at the opposite end of a spectrum to flair, game IQ, vision etc. But nothing is mutually exclusive.

If you've spent long enough around Australian football you will know exactly why someone like Volpato would have been ignored. Pre "dutch revolution" the development conversation was dominated by the punditry bemoaning a lack of technical acumen supposedly because of a cultural preference for size and strength. Less tangible mental qualities like IQ, capacity to improvise and vision were completely ignored and despite the cultural overhaul, continue to be ignored post "dutch revolution". "Technique" became shorthand among the coaching bureaucracy as if it naturally included those less tangible mental qualities. It does not. Hence a few generations now of velociraptors - very good technique, fantastic physical attributes but not that clever or creative. Kind of all the things that are synonymous which the Netherlands inability to win a world cup.

I can see why the current team is stacked with velociraptors. In a sense I think Poppa might be doing something slightly radical, if you consider the history here. At this early and young stage of the side's development he's relying on some natural attributes (fight, athleticism) but marrying it with some defensive discipline. He'll cautiously spend the WC prioritising our goal stopping ability.

The fact he made Vopato's inclusion such a priority now points to where he wants to head from here perhaps into the Asian Cup. The next tactical progression where in addition to attackers who can run onto and compete for the ball, we will start to see those who come to receive the ball to feet. Whether you agree with his strategy or not, it is to my eyes, a strategy with some merit.
 
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grazorblade said:
Im curious how similar this is to how he coached wsw?

Remember they were getting 0 all draws for ages before their attack improved. We could realistically just be a work in progress until the asian cup.
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The younger, more technically adept Aus players are kicking on all the time.
 
Punchanello said:
This whole debate tends to sort of drift to binaries in Australia and very (central and northern) Eurocentric perspectives. We tend to talk as if athleticism, size, aggression and, tactical discipline sit at the opposite end of a spectrum to flair, game IQ, vision etc. But nothing is mutually exclusive.

If you've spent long enough around Australian football you will know exactly why someone like Volpato would have been ignored. Pre "dutch revolution" the development conversation was dominated by the punditry bemoaning a lack of technical acumen supposedly because of a cultural preference for size and strength. Less tangible mental qualities like IQ, capacity to improvise and vision were completely ignored and despite the cultural overhaul, continue to be ignored post "dutch revolution". "Technique" became shorthand among the coaching bureaucracy as if it naturally included those less tangible mental qualities. It does not. Hence a few generations now of velociraptors - very good technique, fantastic physical attributes but not that clever or creative. Kind of all the things that are synonymous which the Netherlands inability to win a world cup.

I can see why the current team is stacked with velociraptors. In a sense I think Poppa might be doing something slightly radical, if you consider the history here. At this early and young stage of the side's development he's relying on some natural attributes (fight, athleticism) but marrying it with some defensive discipline. He'll cautiously spend the WC prioritising our goal stopping ability.

The fact he made Vopato's inclusion such a priority now points to where he wants to head from here perhaps into the Asian Cup. The next tactical progression where in addition to attackers who can run onto and compete for the ball, we will start to see those who come to receive the ball to feet. Whether you agree with his strategy or not, it is to my eyes, a strategy with some merit.
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Aus curriculum is not Dutch per se.

It is an amalgam of French, Spanish and Dutch, with some German aspects. I have been in the Football Aus development system. It seems some coaches who missed National Conferences from the parent body, have missed out on what practices have been adopted and why?

There isn't any edict to stifle creativity either by the Aus parent body Tech Dept. I actually have seen more adventurous dribbling techniques used in the AL than this WC, now Brazil seems to have diminished its flair.

To date, Volpato's game sense is lower level than his technical qualities. I was surprised he was overlooked by both WSW and SFC though.
 
grazorblade said:
We could realistically just be a work in progress until the asian cup.
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I think this is the plan and I think it's also our World Cup strategy. Proof will be in the pudding. Build from a tight tactical framework and try to grow into the tournament. I mean Poppa has said as much consistently. He keeps talking about exposing the players to the problem as the only way for them to progress as individuals and as a team.
 
Decentric said:
Aus curriculum is not Dutch per se.

It is an amalgam of French, Spanish and Dutch, with some German aspects.
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That's not how it started. There was an initial and very deliberate strategy to replicate a dutch methodology.

I'm not suggesting there is a deliberate edict to stifle creativity. I am saying there remains a latent, cultural preference for more tangible and obvious qualities. Those qualities extend beyond simply dribbling ability. That's partly an Australian thing and partly inspired by some European influences.

Brazil's reduced reliance on flair has been 30 years in the making.
 
grazorblade said:
I wonder if short, physically remedial players are better off going to asia or south america. Europe may be more technically advanced than us, but they are way more physically advanced. We've seen euro clubs struggle to break down defences and they may be underemphasizing flair. I dont want to overstate things, a european team will probably win the world cup and it is definitely the highest level. But I do think there is a bit of group think in europe about what makes a good player

Id back a tilio/arzani/nisbet against a deep block over much higher calibre players. Its useful to have that sort of player in your squad, but that profile of player really struggles to crack europe
Click to expand...
It is a good question, G?

Outside Spain, from teams I've watched closely, IMO UEFA teams have been too tall.

Because they constantly play each other, they haven't been shown up by shorter , technical teams, like Brazil ( of the past) and Argentina. Current Spain also haven't got lots of big, bulky Weight Trainers, like England and Norway.

There were Congo ball players on both flanks, a bit shorter, whose excellent ball control and dribbling ability worried England. They could change direction better than their taller English markers. England might be too complacent with their EPL.
 
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Punchanello said:
That's not how it started. There was an initial and very deliberate strategy to employ a dutch methodology.

I'm not suggesting there is a deliberate edict to stifle creativity. I am saying there remains a latent, cultural preference for more tangible and obvious qualities. Those qualities extend beyond simply dribbling ability. That's partly an Australian thing and partly inspired by some European influences.

Brazil's reduced reliance on flair has been 30 years in the making.
Click to expand...
I was in the system. I was under the tutelage of one of the NC writers.

Under Baan it was KNVB based, then Berger and 12 other FFA coaches traversed the world studying what they deemed to be best world practices.

I did advanced coach education in both Dutch KNVB, and, the new FFA NC. There is a lot of common ground, but a few subtle differences.
 
Quicky said:
I don't think Australian teams lack any fight.
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Dutch coaches love coaching Aussies.

For what we lack in technical qualities compared to the Orange, they love the desperation to win, commitment to the team cause and mental strength of Aussie players/teams.
 
Decentric said:
I was in the system. I was under the tutelage of one of the NC writers.

Under Baan it was KNVB based, then Berger and 12 other FFA coaches traversed the world studying what they deemed to be best world practices.

I did advanced coach education in both Dutch KNVB, and, the new FFA NC. There is a lot of common ground, but a few subtle differences.
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I know, but I'm not here to measure pissing distance. ;)
 
Looking at France, they have high technical quality.

Not only do French players have fast handling speed all over the pitch, when receiving the ball, they are also quickly able to dribble against a direct opponent, with the second or third touch, even receiving difficult balls to control.

The Spanish have fast handling speed, the ability to 1 touch and 2 touch the ball to teammates, displaying superb body shape. But they don't attempt to dribble past direct opponents, and will pass their way out of trouble - apart from the Spanish wingers.

So far these 2 teams have at times toyed with their opponents. Games haven't taken a lot out of them physically. They haven't chased a lot of ball.

In possession because teams don't apply much Squeezing intensity to them, they don't have to move a lot to open effective passing lanes to support the ball carrier.
 
Punchanello said:
I know, but I'm not here to measure pissing distance. ;)
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The poin't I'm making, is that many coaches in Aus don't know the rationale for why they are doing what they do.

Even a former Melb Vic youth coach wasn't sure why we do what we do under the jurisdiction of Football Aus, after appearing on the G and G Podcast. He does now, thanks to Grazor.

Football Aus should ensure all coaches know why they learn what they do in coach education, not just those lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
 
booney52 said:
Yes smaller players with quick feet and ability to change direction can disrupt a low block.However for this tournament a player like Arzani or Nisbet would not have fitted into Poppa's style.
As you said the idea of the press pushing opponents wide was a eye opener for me.
Even though Poppa's game plan limits our attacking options I have much more respect for his coaching nous in the way he has set up the defence .For the Asian Cup hopefully he can work on the disconnect between our midfield and our attack.
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Arzani has played some minutes under Popa.

Whether he is good enough for the Roos or not, I love watching players like Arzani and Tilio in the AL.

Arzani plays like an old style Brazilian - lobs, chips, clever one/twos and runs often with a clever teammate, dribbles well ( but needs to work on improving his dribbling on his left side), and works well in tight spaces.

Arzani can't shoot for goal too well though.

Whether they play overseas or not, young AL players like Lopane, Jelacic, Vickery, Sicluna, Younis, have a toolkit of flashy tricks that are very entertaining too.

Also, like Bos, Irank and Volpato's dribbling for the Roos.
 
Punchanello said:
This whole debate tends to sort of drift to binaries in Australia and very (central and northern) Eurocentric perspectives. We tend to talk as if athleticism, size, aggression and, tactical discipline sit at the opposite end of a spectrum to flair, game IQ, vision etc. But nothing is mutually exclusive.

If you've spent long enough around Australian football you will know exactly why someone like Volpato would have been ignored. Pre "dutch revolution" the development conversation was dominated by the punditry bemoaning a lack of technical acumen supposedly because of a cultural preference for size and strength. Less tangible mental qualities like IQ, capacity to improvise and vision were completely ignored and despite the cultural overhaul, continue to be ignored post "dutch revolution". "Technique" became shorthand among the coaching bureaucracy as if it naturally included those less tangible mental qualities. It does not. Hence a few generations now of velociraptors - very good technique, fantastic physical attributes but not that clever or creative. Kind of all the things that are synonymous which the Netherlands inability to win a world cup.

I can see why the current team is stacked with velociraptors. In a sense I think Poppa might be doing something slightly radical, if you consider the history here. At this early and young stage of the side's development he's relying on some natural attributes (fight, athleticism) but marrying it with some defensive discipline. He'll cautiously spend the WC prioritising our goal stopping ability.

The fact he made Vopato's inclusion such a priority now points to where he wants to head from here perhaps into the Asian Cup. The next tactical progression where in addition to attackers who can run onto and compete for the ball, we will start to see those who come to receive the ball to feet. Whether you agree with his strategy or not, it is to my eyes, a strategy with some merit.
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Very well said.We do miss McGree who has good technique but also creativity.The same goes for Nisbet( but he needs to play in a higher league than the Dutch 2nd division to really show if he can cut it at a higher level) and maybe for Robertson.Mooy definitely had football nous and understood the game.As you say Volpato could be the one we are looking for and now that he is integrated into the team Popa may alter his game plan for the Asian Cup.
Coaches like players grow and learn as we saw with Ange and Arnold.Ange did try to play his ideal attacking game with only a handful of players who were up to it and therefore the Socceroos never performed as well as he wanted(Arnie learnt more about man management and also played with an organised defence with those quick transitions to attack.
 
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