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Capitalism when it's gone off the rails.

Football us life said:
Agree with that.

Of course tgere's one or tow issues giing on with some of the Scandinavian countries but I think it's generally down to bad management rather than exposing flaws in the actual politics.
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My own personal thoughts on this are that communities break down when people can't afford to live a half decent existence. A bloke in Indo is less likely to become radicalised if he has a job, money for his family, shelter and can afford stuff.

A person working 2 jobs and still going backwards is going to have a whole host of grievances at the world and is a likely target for radicalisation.

I think the same thing happens here. Graffiti and litter are 2 small things you see that are reflective of people that don't feel part of, or have been left out of, the community they're in.

Yes Singapore doesn't have litter or graffiti because they have harsh punishments but that's not the same for Japan, Taiwan, Scando countries and others.


Talking to my kids they're, at times, despairing of the world we've left them. They're not picking up a gun anytime soon but you can see how one thing leads to another.
 
LFC said:
haha - its just $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, the model/s are how much do I need to offer/invest to XYX country for them to put their hands out - pretty simple mouse trap on the prey.
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In all fairness mate, at least the CCP DOES invest in Africa and South American third world countries, rather than just threaten them with regime change and tariffs... They may be the ones benefiting from the infrastructure build in the long term but without it do you think countries in Africa for example would have railroads or highways or freight terminals? Trump aint gonna build them.
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
In all fairness mate, at least the CCP DOES invest in Africa and South American third world countries, rather than just threaten them with regime change and tariffs... They may be the ones benefiting from the infrastructure build in the long term but without it do you think countries in Africa for example would have railroads or highways or freight terminals? Trump aint gonna build them.
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He would if they had oil.
 
Football us life said:
If someone or more likely a particular society ever gets "communism" right it could well rule the world. It could well ruin the world, as some people will no doubt attest too.

Although a "fail-proof" version of communism is likely impossible. It would require solving inherent problems of incentives, economic calculation, and concentrated power. A resilient version might blend markets with social ownership and radical democracy, powered by a future of technological change which is coming in abundance.....

Realistically I doubt there's a "fail-proof" version of communism to be had in our lifetimes but my old fella who was a real advocate of "communism" always reckoned it was just around the corner.....
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Jesus was the last real Communist if you think about it.
 
Muz said:
At the base level are people in the lower and middle classes objectively better off in the US or China? That's my question.

Yeah they don't have twitter and facebook but they have universal health care and brilliant infrastructure.

In America 66% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills. Half a million families every year.

https://americanhumanrightsinitiativefoundation.org/blogs/millions-in-medical-debt

In the US the top 1% of people own more than the bottom 50% of households. That's way skew if.
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It even worse, I think I read somewhere that the top 12 Americans are worth more than the combined wealth of 4-5 billion people.
 
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Muz said:
My own personal thoughts on this are that communities break down when people can't afford to live a half decent existence. A bloke in Indo is less likely to become radicalised if he has a job, money for his family, shelter and can afford stuff.

A person working 2 jobs and still going backwards is going to have a whole host of grievances at the world and is a likely target for radicalisation.

I think the same thing happens here. Graffiti and litter are 2 small things you see that are reflective of people that don't feel part of, or have been left out of, the community they're in.

Yes Singapore doesn't have litter or graffiti because they have harsh punishments but that's not the same for Japan, Taiwan, Scando countries and others.


Talking to my kids they are, at times, despairing of the world we've left them. They're not picking up a gun anytime soon but you can see how one thing leads to another.
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Good post. In Britain, which socially and culturally is quite similar to Australia in a lot of ways, there's a whole strand of an underclass which has formed over the last 30 years.

They don’t work, they're reliant on benefits, they live in often, rundown social housing estate's and many of the young men and sometimes girls are involved in street gangs and crimes associated with the streets....

This is because the world has totally left them behind, they've been absolutely shit on by the rest of society from the start of their lives....

Ever see 'Top Boy' on Netflix?

It's a drama yes but it's sometimes like that in parts of London, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool....
 
Football us life said:
Good post. In Britain, which socially and culturally is quite similar to Australia in a lot ofvways, there's a whole strand of an underclass which has formed over the last 30 years.

They don’t work, they're reliant on benefits, they live in often, rundown social housing estate's and many of the young men and sometimes girls are involved in street gangs and crimes associated with the streets....

This is because the world has totally left them behind, they've been absolutely shit on by the rest of society from the start of their lives....

Ever see 'Top Boy' on Netflix?

It's a drama yes but it's sometimes like that in parts of London, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool....
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Actually rewatching 'Shameless' at the moment. Sounds similar to 'Top Boy'.
 
Muz said:
I always say capitalism is probably the best system because without it what would drive innovation and entrepreneurship?

BUT that doesn't mean it can't be better.

If you put capitalist countries on a spectrum with the Scando countries on one end and the US at the other I think we should shoot for the Scando end of the spectrum. Funnelling wealth upwards and hollowing out the middle class like they do in the US is just bad for everybody.

When they're using AI, like they do in the US, to deny health insurance to 91% of claims that is fucked up and wrong. But if you're a free market, neo-liberal then that's the free market at work and that's all fine and dandy.
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Sure I agree in a way but innovation and entreperneurship CAN come about with an even allocation of resources leading to an even distribution of labour and thus free time... It is no coincidence that things like the Renaissance and even the ancient Greek establishment of schools of philosophy was reliant on an "Aristocracy" that didnt have to spend all of their time surviving and could dedicate effort to other endeavours.

Altruism and innovation should be for the benefit of human experience NOT brightly coloured baubles and frivolous frumpery developed ONLY to drive profit and capital....
 
Muz said:
At the base level are people in the lower and middle classes objectively better off in the US or China? That's my question.
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your question, my streetwise observations having travelled and know colleagues very well both sides over many years, I'd sooner be on USA soil plain and simple. The US friends I know @ middle class are living well. Lower anywhere is a challenge anywhere and always will be imo.
Muz said:
Yeah they don't have twitter and facebook but they have universal health care and brilliant infrastructure.
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They have weechat/Baidu their google plus the smarts can get through to western sites obviously - yep CCP health is at least good for all and infrastructure (<<<some on low salaries would struggle to pay week in week out) - USA health has been a basket case for how long ? 50yrs ? why didn't the socialists correct that when in powa over the times its shocking I agree - their infrastructure to me seems ok from my limited use.
Muz said:
In America 66% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills. Half a million families every year.
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Terrible agree - never really understood why they haven't provided a health system like we have with all their $$$ I mean debt, just add more.
Muz said:
https://americanhumanrightsinitiativefoundation.org/blogs/millions-in-medical-debt

In the US the top 1% of people own more than the bottom 50% of households. That's way skew if.
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yer I reckon none of the public should support MLS for starters :)
Property there has had some massive % cycles over the decades.
Another mess they have - don't we all.
 
Its funny when anti-socialists claim to be Aussie loving capitalists but list all the things that are great about here are basically socialist ideas

medicare, hospitals, education, housing, fire brigade, transport, government services, fark, even cleaning the streets

If they could ever marry anarchism with the good parts of capitalism...you've got something
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Sure I agree in a way but innovation and entreperneurship CAN come about with an even allocation of resources leading to an even distribution of labour and thus free time... It is no coincidence that things like the Renaissance and even the ancient Greek establishment of schools of philosophy was reliant on an "Aristocracy" that didnt have to spend all of their time surviving and could dedicate effort to other endeavours.

Altruism and innovation should be for the benefit of human experience NOT brightly coloured baubles and frivolous frumpery developed ONLY to drive profit and capital....
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Well then you need benevolent billionaires and humans to be wired not to be greedy. The bible was right when they said 'the love of money is the root of all evil'.

We need it, don't 'love' it though.
 
Football us life said:
Good post. In Britain, which socially and culturally is quite similar to Australia in a lot of ways, there's a whole strand of an underclass which has formed over the last 30 years.

They don’t work, they're reliant on benefits, they live in often, rundown social housing estate's and many of the young men and sometimes girls are involved in street gangs and crimes associated with the streets....

This is because the world has totally left them behind, they've been absolutely shit on by the rest of society from the start of their lives....

Ever see 'Top Boy' on Netflix?

It's a drama yes but it's sometimes like that in parts of London, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool....
Click to expand...

To me the crux of the issue is wealth disparity. I get it, there'll always be layaboubts and malcontents but the vast majority of people just want to work and enjoy life and have enough money for themselves, their family, have shelter and maybe go on a holiday once a year.

When you don't have that you're getting what we have now. People living in cars, people deciding not to have kids, no hope and despair for their future because they can't see a way out. What do the seppos call it, 'working poor'.

The one thing I thought was terrific when I was a young 'commo' was that in Australia, if you worked a minimum wage job, you could still have a decent standard of living. Get a house, feed your kids, go out once a week, go on a holiday every now and again. (A working wage.)

Nothing flash but decent. That's gone now and that's fucked up.
 
Muz said:
Yeah I read that too.

You and I are worth more than a billion people or so too.
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Thats pretty much impossible unless you are good for about 990 odd million on your own? hahahahaha

Even the lowest of the lower class has an intrinsic value of a couple of dollars surely? Even just the few mouthfuls of food a day if nothing else?
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
In all fairness mate, at least the CCP DOES invest in Africa and South American third world countries, rather than just threaten them with regime change and tariffs... They may be the ones benefiting from the infrastructure build in the long term but without it do you think countries in Africa for example would have railroads or highways or freight terminals? Trump aint gonna build them.
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As I mentioned - agree hence why those countries take the handout and yep its dam good for them till the CCP decide time you sing to my tunes. Would you trust them ? I don't.
They could also pull out next week ruin you with a blink of an eye.
All the directives towards Trump get me to think what other Prez's have done and not with all their power and resource long before him.
USA have been a jekyll and hyde since WW2 ceased.
I don't put my arms around them like the western world white night as they once were looked as - become their own worst enemy they hadn't realised (ignorant) it happenning the last 30+yrs.
They thought they are inpregnable for decades and here they are up the poop hence Trumps front foot looney reactions - in my industry dealing with them we warned them the asians are coming long long ago - they scoff, well more so CEO levels for its all about the domestic volumes !!!! well thats even been taken by Imports/China/India and others.
 
@Monoethnic Social Club

I saw a laughing emoji about how we're worth more than the poorest 1 billion.

We're actually wealthier than half the world's population,

The World #InequalityReport 2022 presents the most up-to-date & complete data on inequality worldwide:

💵 global wealth 🌍 ecological inequality 💰 income inequality since 1820 ♀ gender inequality 👉 Check it out wir2022.wid.world 👥 World Inequality Lab - WID.world
wir2022.wid.world wir2022.wid.world

The bottom half, so 4 billion people, earn an average of $3 920 USD.
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Thats pretty much impossible unless you are good for about 990 odd million on your own? hahahahaha

Even the lowest of the lower class has an intrinsic value of a couple of dollars surely? Even just the few mouthfuls of food a day if nothing else?
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You're misreading that. Per person.

The average salary in the bottom 50% of the world is USD $3 920.

Our average salary puts us in the top 10% of the world average salaries.
 
LFC said:
your question, my streetwise observations having travelled and know colleagues very well both sides over many years, I'd sooner be on USA soil plain and simple. The US friends I know @ middle class are living well. Lower anywhere is a challenge anywhere and always will be imo.

They have weechat/Baidu their google plus the smarts can get through to western sites obviously - yep CCP health is at least good for all and infrastructure (<<<some on low salaries would struggle to pay week in week out) - USA health has been a basket case for how long ? 50yrs ? why didn't the socialists correct that when in powa over the times its shocking I agree - their infrastructure to me seems ok from my limited use.

Terrible agree - never really understood why they haven't provided a health system like we have with all their $$$ I mean debt, just add more.

yer I reckon none of the public should support MLS for starters :)
Property there has had some massive % cycles over the decades.
Another mess they have - don't we all.
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Mate you cant talk about "streetwise observations" from the business class lounge or the trade conference meeting room.

The US is a failed state for more than 50% of their population. I have never seen anyone living in a tent in China.
 
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