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Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

I wrote about this last year:

HappyGuus said:
Remember how A-League wanted to expand to 20 teams with new and old clubs? The plan was then to split that into two divisions.

Well, we're at 20 teams right now, 12 APL and 8 NST. In 2026/27 why not fast forward straight to that 20 team super division? Then split that for the following season with 12-14 in the top tier and expand the second tier to 12.
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That's one idea. And I've looked at various short, medium, and long term shifts towards pro/rel. Something that can benefit all parties.

Short term: Expand A-League to 16 (Canberra, Gold Coast, Christchurch, Tasmania or similar). Expand Championship to 12 as a proper league.

Medium term: Promote Championship teams to A-League (no relegation from AL), get it to 18 teams. Promote NPL champions league winners to Championship (no relegation from Championship), keep it around 12 teams due to cost.

Long term: By now it's 2034 and we can have relegation from A-League. The pyramid is connected. A-League can stay at 18 or cut back to 16 depending on success. Championship can be 12-16 teams depending on success/cost. No A3 league due to cost, but still an NPL champions league for promotion to Championship.

I've had these plans for years and they haven't changed much, except the dates keep getting pushed back by the lack of progress from the suits.
 
Vince Rugari and Matt Windley's idea.

www.facebook.com

52K views · 553 reactions | 🇦🇺⚽️💬 "I don't know why we're waiting... just say this is what we're doing now!" This is the conversation that could define the future of Australian football. Let's talk about promotion and relegation. SMH reporter Vince

🇦🇺⚽️💬 "I don't know why we're waiting... just say this is what we're doing now!" This is the conversation that could define the future of Australian football. Let's talk about promotion and...
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com

If you're a South Melbourne or APIA or whoever, would you join?
 
Quicky said:
Vince Rugari and Matt Windley's idea.

www.facebook.com

52K views · 553 reactions | 🇦🇺⚽️💬 "I don't know why we're waiting... just say this is what we're doing now!" This is the conversation that could define the future of Australian football. Let's talk about promotion and relegation. SMH reporter Vince

🇦🇺⚽️💬 "I don't know why we're waiting... just say this is what we're doing now!" This is the conversation that could define the future of Australian football. Let's talk about promotion and...
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com

If you're a South Melbourne or APIA or whoever, would you join?
Click to expand...
"P&R is a solution to the problem of having too many clubs" said with such authority. But where does that claim come from?
 
HonestSpursFan said:
I had a similar idea in my proposal where teams qualified for the Championship (which becomes an actual league rather than a cupesque tournament) via the state leagues with the relegated teams reorganised into state leagues via geography (with those state leagues having an increased relegation spot in that case to avoid overcrowding the leagues).
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My proposal is also similar but involves the Australian Championship becoming five foundation clubs in addition to eight NPL premiers and the three best second placed sides (one apiece) from New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria qualifying to facilitate a 16-team A-League with expansion to Canberra and addition of South Melbourne, Bergers and Preston Lions, where the bottom three are relegated between A-League and the Championship, and the bottom one or two sides in the Championship are relegated back to existing NPL pyramids based on Member Federation size.
 
rebelliousfeminist974 said:
My proposal is also similar but involves the Australian Championship becoming five foundation clubs in addition to eight NPL premiers and the three best second placed sides (one apiece) from New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria qualifying to facilitate a 16-team A-League with expansion to Canberra and addition of South Melbourne, Bergers and Preston Lions, where the bottom three are relegated between A-League and the Championship, and the bottom one or two sides in the Championship are relegated back to existing NPL pyramids based on Member Federation size.
Click to expand...
By eight NPL premiers I assume you mean from every federation but Football NT which doesn’t have an NPL (but it’s still eight since Football Northern NSW is separate to Football NSW)?

If so that would surely work. The only problem I can think of is debate over the foundation clubs.

Where does the NZNL fit in your proposal? Does it have a place or should it be kept completely separate?
 
NicCarBel said:
Honestly, if we’re aiming to connect the pyramid, etc - we shouldn’t be creating any new teams at the top (eg, Canberra United)
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It's not obvious that new franchises are incompatible with p&r

I guess what matters most is the politics. Would that mean more voices and more political weight against opening things up. If so then its a negative, if not then its fine
 
HonestSpursFan said:
By eight NPL premiers I assume you mean from every federation but Football NT which doesn’t have an NPL (but it’s still eight since Football Northern NSW is separate to Football NSW)?

If so that would surely work. The only problem I can think of is debate over the foundation clubs.
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The eight NPL premiers would be from every Member Federation and the remaining five foundation clubs would be the same as they are currently, except the three best second placed teams from New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria replace South Melbourne, Heidelberg United and Preston Lions who would be promoted to the A-League as part of expansion to a 16-team comp along with the addition of a Canberra side.
 
rebelliousfeminist974 said:
The eight NPL premiers would be from every Member Federation and the remaining five foundation clubs would be the same as they are currently, except the three best second placed teams from New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria replace South Melbourne, Heidelberg United and Preston Lions who would be promoted to the A-League as part of expansion to a 16-team comp along with the addition of a Canberra side.
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Sounds good! I’m guessing no NZNL teams though?
 
Quicky said:
I reckon the only way forward is to integrate. Throwing the AL out is just repeating past mistakes. It might make the disgruntled fans feel nice and fuzzy inside but you'd be turning many away from the game. Just like post NSL. It'd be stupidity.

We need pro-rel between the AL and below. Let the AL clubs compete and see who's strong enough to survive. See what teams are strong enough to rise. We'll get to see which clubs are just 'franchises' - as gets needled.

It's a shame the APL interests and structures makes that almost impossible. Which is total bullshit.
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Yer laundering was harsh or maybe not.
APL management sure have pocketed well themselves - that ceo who blew 80M on giddy keepup and lost lots of people’s jobs even though it was way over staffed in the first place and then he bails out didn’t he get a gig Middle East.
Laundering shonks - typical ivory tower mis handling of everything but what their meant to do imagine if that money was spent wisely.
Sure closing up their shop is also harsh purely on the perspective what you mention but I always wonder HOW your going to sit in a boardroom with owners and say hey we need to join alliances you know with those semi pro ethnics we all have been trying to burn at the steak so yer please take one for us all and earn your place on the league ladder properly every season and hey you may also gain a consolation prize of taking your club downstairs in a Div2.
Will you pretty please help us align our utterly disjointed football system for the good of game fans kids families ??? You know think of the children that you normally have charged 2/3/4K to join your business.

Sorry I’m being a you know what and I really wish for the best truely.
I’m in business I know where I would stand in their place plain and simple unless a got a very good rebate up front.
 
HonestSpursFan said:
Sounds good! I’m guessing no NZNL teams though?
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New Zealand National League teams would remain separate from the proposed new Australian football pyramid but Auckland FC and Wellington Phoenix would still retain their spots in the A-League and can be promoted and relegated like everyone else, except they can only go down to the Australian Championship at most unless a Member Federation is willing to admit them into their pyramid should it reach that point.
 
HonestSpursFan said:
Football360 says pro/rel is possible (source: Instagram)!

View attachment 5460

I'll link the full post below but basically there's three steps:
  1. Expand the A-League to 18 teams (e.g Canberra, Christchurch, Gold Coast, Tassie)
  2. Split the league into two, with relegation between the A1 and A2 Leagues
  3. Only have pro/rel from the A2 League if the club seeking promotion is 100% able to become pro
Read the full thing here, it's quite interesting and it could work!

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A lot of people going off on the socials about 9 teams, probably fair enough. Equal division numbers are ideal, but they're better off in this example going with 10+8, or even better expanding to 20 and going with a 12+8 split or 10+10 as a second preference. I think if the top tier drops below 12 teams then we're in trouble.

But I love the concept of the show and it will certainly get people concentrating on connecting the pyramid.
 
HappyGuus said:
A lot of people going off on the socials about 9 teams, probably fair enough. Equal division numbers are ideal, but they're better off in this example going with 10+8, or even better expanding to 20 and going with a 12+8 split or 10+10 as a second preference. I think if the top tier drops below 12 teams then we're in trouble.

But I love the concept of the show and it will certainly get people concentrating on connecting the pyramid.
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Yeah it was a fantastic show to be honest

Interesting Vince does believe that there should be public criteria for anyone t get in the a league (or presumably championship) and anyone should be allowed. I don't know how much influence he has, but I do see him as a bit of a barometer for your more skeptical of grassroots side of the divide in football. So fingers crossed that view becomes wide spread enough to get implemented
 
grazorblade said:
Yeah it was a fantastic show to be honest

Interesting Vince does believe that there should be public criteria for anyone t get in the a league (or presumably championship) and anyone should be allowed. I don't know how much influence he has, but I do see him as a bit of a barometer for your more skeptical of grassroots side of the divide in football. So fingers crossed that view becomes wide spread enough to get implemented
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I'm always surprised he has this view - when he cut his teeth on Hanwood v Yoogali - and given his brilliant love letter on the Yoogali/NPL situation last year - it really goes against that thinking.
 
The increased calls for promotion and relegation lately seem to coincide with the APL reaching a low point. It seems like they realise they need Football Australia more than FA needs the APL. If there was going to be a time that P&R might gain traction, it's now more than ever. The inability to get an investor in Canberra, issues with owners at the Mariners, Perth, and Newcastle... there may be a realisation that the model has gone as far as it can in this country.

The JFA realised giving clubs a lower benchmark to reach when they created the J2 and then the J3, meant more clubs were willing to try to improve the non-sporting parts of their organisation (finances, infrastructure, fan engagement) to meet the lower criteria. Machida Zelvia are a great example of how setting lower requirements for lower national leagues encourages growth that can eventually build into truly professional outfits - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Machida_Zelvia. But without those lower requirements to build to, there is less appetite to take the huge risk to go straight to the top league.

This is the problem the APL faces - there's not too many people willing to pay $30 million to own an A-League club in Canberra for the privilege of losing a further 2-3 million every year. If there was an option for investors to work with existing clubs, or start a second division franchise if appropriate, there'd be a lot more takers.
 
grazorblade said:
"P&R is a solution to the problem of having too many clubs" said with such authority. But where does that claim come from?
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Small correction he said "P&R is a solution to the problem of having too many PROFESSIONAL clubs" which must explain why P&R exists all throughout the known football universe.... the bloke is an AFL muppet, ...
 
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