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Straya Day

Well, the current iteration of Australia day has only been celebrated since 1994. It's had many different dates in the past, and even different states celebrated at different times. Invasion day has been around much longer than that. So in essence, some time is only 30 years. It's not that significant in the scale of 200 years of colonisation. It can't be nothing more than 'just Australia Day' though. It is the day for Indigenous people that signifies the start of colonisation, not the celebration of this nation. For them, this nation is built off the back of their ancestors blood, so how can they celebrate that?

We have had many chances to address the real issues. The Voice got shot down, despite overwhelming support for it from First Nations people. We have had multiple First Nations bodies to parliament appointed and then disbanded. We've had conservative governments virtue signal during their time in power and not actually take any action on First Nations rights and needs. The man who was gunning for PM ran out of the apology. He labelled Welcome to Country as virtue signalling and overdone. Refused to stand in front of the Aboriginal flag, and promised to remove First Nations names from significant bases and areas. I'm not talking about a guy from the 70's but a guy who wanted to be PM last year. First Nations people still face higher incarceration rates and unfair treatment. How can we address all these issues when we can't even respect a simple request to not celebrate an invasion on one day? How can we take the right seriously when they say they want to do right by First Nations people when their leadership is deep rooted in not wanting to, and people vote for them?

A simple thing as not understanding the significance of the Welcome to Country. "I sHOulDn't haVE to Be wELcOMeD tO My COuNTry". They are not welcoming non First Nations only. They welcome other First Nations people too. It is an engrained part of their culture and custom that signifies respect and recognition. It signifies welcoming. If they never welcomed other tribes and people, it meant that you were not allowed and had to either leave, or there would be a fight between those tribes. In essence, it signifies that they accept and respect you. Yet, here we are in 2026, where people boo it and refuse to take that respect offered. So i'm sorry, but all this, "put it in the past and let's move forward" is very hard to be taken genuinely when all these things still exist, and are evidence that people don't actually want to move forward.

Invasion day is specifically tied to 26 January because that is the date Arthur Phillip declared the land in the name of the Kingdom. Indigenous people are saying, "change the date". Those words in and of itself, from them, suggests that they would not create issue on any other day. We have to be genuine with our efforts. Not just, "we changed the date, what more do you want". It's been 20 years since the apology, and we still have non First Nations people telling First Nations what they think they need and deserve.

Just because something is hard, doesn't mean you don't do it. Those arguments are tied to strawman fallacy. It's what conservatives and the right have done for a long time. "It won't change anything because there will be all these other things anyway". So because it's hard we shouldn't try, and put it the work needed?

It was a terrorist act. It should be charged as. The refusal to label it so, and the immediate deflection is evidence of the bias reporting, and systemic racism that exists.

Now, I'd love to keep engaging and discussing, but it has been very tiring trying to justify the humanity of people. So forgive me if I don't reply to you, but I don't think I can say anything I haven't already said, or provide any evidence or facts I haven't already, that is going to move the needle of though that many of you have. You seem rational, but there are many that are just stubborn and not here to actually discuss genuinely. Have a good evening.
Thank you for engaging as you have and the effort of typing all that.

I am aware how much thought can go into a carefully crafted response.

For me personally, I can understand your viewpoint and discuss it all rationally - but that does not equate to agreement on all your thoughts. I know that we see many things differently.

For my part I will end on one line of thought.

The invasion of this country was not endorsed or undertaken by anyone currently alive and certainly not anyone Australian. Not a single person now can be labelled part of an invading force or an invader, and for that one act alone there can be no Australian apology or admittance of personal blame that has real value or meaning.

"I am sorry that someone else did very bad things to you" is very different from "I am sorry for what we did to you".

For the 200 years of abuse that followed, and continues now, we need to accept that and look to true resolution - but not through a sense of guilt, fault or blame for most of that 200 year period. We do not expect current day Italians (as a ridiculous example) to apologise for the ravages of the Roman Empire. They had nothing to do with it. And I do not expect the current German Government to apologise for Nazi atrocities. I am perhaps naïve on the global political spectrum - but if you had nothing to do with something you have nothing to apologise for.

Recognition, empathy, understanding, shared sorrow, and even restitution - Yes!
Learning and change to stop it and prevent it happening again - Yes!
Blame, fault, guilt - No.

For the 1/32 indigenous people - 31 of their ancestors were, at the least, part of the system which abused the 1. So why do we look to others to apologise to the 1 part when their own ancestors are by far the majority of culprits? If the current Australian people or Government are to blame for prior atrocities, then their own ancestors are to blame. They owe themselves an apology and restitution if you hold current society personally to blame for historic events before any of us was born.

I think there is an irrational and unfair apportionment of blame on current society for many of the historic wrongs. Totally separate to the responsibility of a country to right historic wrongs if it can. But it also should reflect that most of current society is paying for resolution of something that we had no part in.

To make it clear though - none of that refutes the pain and suffering, and abuses both past and present that have to be addressed on humanitarian grounds alone - aside from the benefit to the country as a whole if we could ever find a path to resolution.

I think we just have the wrong focus for resolution on both sides of the divide - attributing blame unfairly now, and that obstructs every process.

Have a good night (or morning now that I look at the time) and I leave our discussion on that unsatisfactory note.
 
Thank you for engaging as you have and the effort of typing all that.

I am aware how much thought can go into a carefully crafted response.

For me personally, I can understand your viewpoint and discuss it all rationally - but that does not equate to agreement on all your thoughts. I know that we see many things differently.

For my part I will end on one line of thought.

The invasion of this country was not endorsed or undertaken by anyone currently alive and certainly not anyone Australian. Not a single person now can be labelled part of an invading force or an invader, and for that one act alone there can be no Australian apology or admittance of personal blame that has real value or meaning.

"I am sorry that someone else did very bad things to you" is very different from "I am sorry for what we did to you".

For the 200 years of abuse that followed, and continues now, we need to accept that and look to true resolution - but not through a sense of guilt, fault or blame for most of that 200 year period. We do not expect current day Italians (as a ridiculous example) to apologise for the ravages of the Roman Empire. They had nothing to do with it. And I do not expect the current German Government to apologise for Nazi atrocities. I am perhaps naïve on the global political spectrum - but if you had nothing to do with something you have nothing to apologise for.

Recognition, empathy, understanding, shared sorrow, and even restitution - Yes!
Learning and change to stop it and prevent it happening again - Yes!
Blame, fault, guilt - No.

For the 1/32 indigenous people - 31 of their ancestors were, at the least, part of the system which abused the 1. So why do we look to others to apologise to the 1 part when their own ancestors are by far the majority of culprits? If the current Australian people or Government are to blame for prior atrocities, then their own ancestors are to blame. They owe themselves an apology and restitution if you hold current society personally to blame for historic events before any of us was born.

I think there is an irrational and unfair apportionment of blame on current society for many of the historic wrongs. Totally separate to the responsibility of a country to right historic wrongs if it can. But it also should reflect that most of current society is paying for resolution of something that we had no part in.

To make it clear though - none of that refutes the pain and suffering, and abuses both past and present that have to be addressed on humanitarian grounds alone - aside from the benefit to the country as a whole if we could ever find a path to resolution.

I think we just have the wrong focus for resolution on both sides of the divide - attributing blame unfairly now, and that obstructs every process.

Have a good night (or morning now that I look at the time) and I leave our discussion on that unsatisfactory note.
I have a question.

Should I have to condemn October 7, or the Bondi shootings?

No one is asking people of today to be guilty because you are responsible. We are asking them to acknowledge and understand, then take active and sincere steps to rectify.

Someone comes into your house. Claims it for themselves. They beat you up when you tell them to leave. They eat your food, sleep in your bed and use your clothes. I come along some time later. They invite me in and give me the spare room. They move you from the couch to the doghouse outside. That person passes away. You tell me that your house was stolen by that person. I respond, "well I didn't do it, so why should it matter to me. Move on".
 
I have a question.

Should I have to condemn October 7, or the Bondi shootings?

No one is asking people of today to be guilty because you are responsible. We are asking them to acknowledge and understand, then take active and sincere steps to rectify.

Someone comes into your house. Claims it for themselves. They beat you up when you tell them to leave. They eat your food, sleep in your bed and use your clothes. I come along some time later. They invite me in and give me the spare room. They move you from the couch to the doghouse outside. That person passes away. You tell me that your house was stolen by that person. I respond, "well I didn't do it, so why should it matter to me. Move on".
I agree totally with condemning the actions in Bondi and wanting to see it never happen again.

I feel sorrow and anger about it.

I do not feel guilty about it or feel like I have any ownership of the cause or act itself - because I didn't. Care but not fault. Work together to resolve but not with blame.

The impact of the Bondi killings should not negatively impact on my lifestyle though (not saying it does - just making the point).

My own exaggerated example would be someone buying a sharp knife in Woollies and going on a rampage a year later. The individual and the act is the problem - not knives, selling knives or owning knives. I should not have to line up for a security screening before I buy a steak knife.

Our society often loses perspective and focus when we look at problems - choosing more and more control over addressing the real issues. It is much easier to make more restrictive rules than genuinely root out the problems.

There is an element of that lost perspective in addressing indigenous affairs.

We are not looking at it the right way.
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The date (like 9/11) is not the damnation of that date though. There are only 365 days most years - there have been atrocities for every day in history I am sure but it would be pointless making the anniversary of each date a nationally bad day. Remembrance and respect is not the same as actively maintaining the pain of a critical day. It works for good things but not for bad things - because the good part of remembrance and joy can be genuinely tied to the anniversary every year. The bad feelings and pain should only belong to the actual event - without the date itself being contaminated. How much pain and shame should people feel if they are born on Hitler's birthday? None!

To make one point clear though - I agree the reason a date is celebrated is still relevant. If the first indigenous person came to the country on 26 January, the date would have meaning. If 75,000 years later the land was illegally claimed by a foreign power on the anniversary, 26 January is still the best day for the anniversary. But if the reason for the holiday is the date it was taken I openly concede it is wrong.

I just don't see changing the date as anything more than a cosmetic bandaid against the actual problems and issues that have to be addressed and resolved. It won't fix anything; but fair enough it would send a message about recognising the past.

Thinking about it through this discussion, I don't actually have a problem with the date being changed to anything meaningful or randomly selected. I do think the reason for the 26 January date is the wrong reason.

Call it Australia Day and have it reflect the agreement day (between which 'acceptable' individuals though I wonder). Any date can still represent a celebration of this country without it being tied to the wrong historic event.

We celebrated the Queen's Birthday on a day that wasn't her birthday and it was changed by some States or Territories to suit themselves. The same date became the King's Birthday celebration. A date is not fixed in concrete when it comes down to it.
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For the 'taking of my home' issue, it is more complicated than your question.

Do it to me and it is illegal. Do it to a country and it is not. Unfair but it has always been that way. Australia 200 years ago is no different.

The key issue about traditional ownership is that the world has moved on from tribal society. "I was born here and this is my country too" transcends historic tribal ownership. As unfair as that is - it is how the world has to be.

There is actually no difference between Roman conquest and the invasion of Australia 200+ years ago because every single person involved on the bad side of the act is dead. It is not a 'get over it' - it is a need to recognise and accept what happened, work on genuine ways to resolve it once and for all, but not with any level of guilt or 'responsibility' for the act.

The British Empire did it. Captain Cook lied about the occupation of the land. It cannot be undone because in this case the situation has moved far beyond "my ancestors were here first". In a tribal society, invasion leads to battle and possibly to one side being wiped out, taken over or absorbed. Guaranteed some tribes will have taken other tribes land - but it happened so long ago that the original occupants are irrelevant.

My father spoke to an elder a long time ago and the elder spoke of a group of people they called something like "the thin men". They were terrified of them and killed them all over time. My father went to the National Library and found books that confirmed it - but political machinations saw that history removed. There is no place at the table for those events.

Historic crimes of this nature just cannot be reversed or undone after time has passed. You can't punish children for the sins of the parents but our attempts at resolution are partially that.

Countries now have to look at those born in the country, or born to parents of that country as fair and equal sharers of the land. People who have worked their lives to earn money and buy the land have a right to that land.

Once the tribal survival need for specific areas of land passed, the weight of 'need' granting ownership is gone. Is that unfair? Yes. Is it how it has to be? Yes. The idea of a tribe holding more land than they would ever have 'used' because they may have passed over it once or twice a year at most is not a relevant ownership benchmark.

Population growth and global movement of people has made it impossible to hold to traditions and customs of land ownership and land rights from tribal days. For the same reason that it is not acceptable in our society for a traditional owner to pick up a spear and kill someone for walking on their land without permission, or for an elder to claim a woman because it is their right - the world has changed.

What has to happen is recognition of the pain and suffering in our country's history. The ongoing racial abuse has to be corrected and I think that education, and the passage of time and generational thinking, will get somewhere with that.

The land cannot be 'owned' to the exclusion of those who have an equal right by birth or citizenship to public areas - or there is sure to be bloodshed and resistance condemning us all to a never-ending cycle of pain and outrage.

This is far beyond a simple humanitarian issue or an issue of fairness for traditional owners. Fairness for all has to be factored in or we won't get anywhere. And I genuinely think most traditional owners want the same fairness for all along with recognition of their loss and suffering.
 
I agree totally with condemning the actions in Bondi and wanting to see it never happen again.

I feel sorrow and anger about it.

I do not feel guilty about it or feel like I have any ownership of the cause or act itself - because I didn't. Care but not fault. Work together to resolve but not with blame.

The impact of the Bondi killings should not negatively impact on my lifestyle though (not saying it does - just making the point).

My own exaggerated example would be someone buying a sharp knife in Woollies and going on a rampage a year later. The individual and the act is the problem - not knives, selling knives or owning knives. I should not have to line up for a security screening before I buy a steak knife.

Our society often loses perspective and focus when we look at problems - choosing more and more control over addressing the real issues. It is much easier to make more restrictive rules than genuinely root out the problems.

There is an element of that lost perspective in addressing indigenous affairs.

We are not looking at it the right way.
The question was whether I (not you, me) should have to take responsibility and whether I needed to have to condemn it, because if I didn't physically say those words publicly, then it mean that was for it. I'm all for gun control fyi, so your knife analogy doesn't work. Also because with gun control we're talking about something more nuanced. Should semi-auto or auto gun ownership be allowed? Should people have more than a certain number? etc.
_______________________________________________________________

The date (like 9/11) is not the damnation of that date though. There are only 365 days most years - there have been atrocities for every day in history I am sure but it would be pointless making the anniversary of each date a nationally bad day. Remembrance and respect is not the same as actively maintaining the pain of a critical day. It works for good things but not for bad things - because the good part of remembrance and joy can be genuinely tied to the anniversary every year. The bad feelings and pain should only belong to the actual event - without the date itself being contaminated. How much pain and shame should people feel if they are born on Hitler's birthday? None!

To make one point clear though - I agree the reason a date is celebrated is still relevant. If the first indigenous person came to the country on 26 January, the date would have meaning. If 75,000 years later the land was illegally claimed by a foreign power on the anniversary, 26 January is still the best day for the anniversary. But if the reason for the holiday is the date it was taken I openly concede it is wrong.

I just don't see changing the date as anything more than a cosmetic bandaid against the actual problems and issues that have to be addressed and resolved. It won't fix anything; but fair enough it would send a message about recognising the past.

Thinking about it through this discussion, I don't actually have a problem with the date being changed to anything meaningful or randomly selected. I do think the reason for the 26 January date is the wrong reason.

Call it Australia Day and have it reflect the agreement day (between which 'acceptable' individuals though I wonder). Any date can still represent a celebration of this country without it being tied to the wrong historic event.

We celebrated the Queen's Birthday on a day that wasn't her birthday and it was changed by some States or Territories to suit themselves. The same date became the King's Birthday celebration. A date is not fixed in concrete when it comes down to it.
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9/11 and invasion day are not comparable. If the Brits came, made a treaty and treated the First Nations fairly and equally, you'd have a point. The crux is that did not happen. We can have the day as a day of remembrance. It's a day of mourning and hurt because half the population are celebrating the day as if it was a liberation day.

So your last point makes it clear. Australia Day does not have to be the 26th. The date can be changed, and changing it has no impact on anyone. Whilst changing it won't fix the main issues, it's a start to say, "hey, this day is a symbol of servitude, hurt, and pain. We're not celebrating it anymore".
For the 'taking of my home' issue, it is more complicated than your question.

Do it to me and it is illegal. Do it to a country and it is not. Unfair but it has always been that way. Australia 200 years ago is no different.

The key issue about traditional ownership is that the world has moved on from tribal society. "I was born here and this is my country too" transcends historic tribal ownership. As unfair as that is - it is how the world has to be.

There is actually no difference between Roman conquest and the invasion of Australia 200+ years ago because every single person involved on the bad side of the act is dead. It is not a 'get over it' - it is a need to recognise and accept what happened, work on genuine ways to resolve it once and for all, but not with any level of guilt or 'responsibility' for the act.

The British Empire did it. Captain Cook lied about the occupation of the land. It cannot be undone because in this case the situation has moved far beyond "my ancestors were here first". In a tribal society, invasion leads to battle and possibly to one side being wiped out, taken over or absorbed. Guaranteed some tribes will have taken other tribes land - but it happened so long ago that the original occupants are irrelevant.

My father spoke to an elder a long time ago and the elder spoke of a group of people they called something like "the thin men". They were terrified of them and killed them all over time. My father went to the National Library and found books that confirmed it - but political machinations saw that history removed. There is no place at the table for those events.

Historic crimes of this nature just cannot be reversed or undone after time has passed. You can't punish children for the sins of the parents but our attempts at resolution are partially that.

Countries now have to look at those born in the country, or born to parents of that country as fair and equal sharers of the land. People who have worked their lives to earn money and buy the land have a right to that land.

Once the tribal survival need for specific areas of land passed, the weight of 'need' granting ownership is gone. Is that unfair? Yes. Is it how it has to be? Yes. The idea of a tribe holding more land than they would ever have 'used' because they may have passed over it once or twice a year at most is not a relevant ownership benchmark.

Population growth and global movement of people has made it impossible to hold to traditions and customs of land ownership and land rights from tribal days. For the same reason that it is not acceptable in our society for a traditional owner to pick up a spear and kill someone for walking on their land without permission, or for an elder to claim a woman because it is their right - the world has changed.

What has to happen is recognition of the pain and suffering in our country's history. The ongoing racial abuse has to be corrected and I think that education, and the passage of time and generational thinking, will get somewhere with that.

The land cannot be 'owned' to the exclusion of those who have an equal right by birth or citizenship to public areas - or there is sure to be bloodshed and resistance condemning us all to a never-ending cycle of pain and outrage.

This is far beyond a simple humanitarian issue or an issue of fairness for traditional owners. Fairness for all has to be factored in or we won't get anywhere. And I genuinely think most traditional owners want the same fairness for all along with recognition of their loss and suffering.
It's not that complicated. It's exactly the same thing. Your legality of your home comes from laws and systems set in place by a body. That body came to be through an inhumane and unjustified means. Not to mention, that body in this day and age refuses to acknowledge those people or afford them the voice they deserve. Why does the body that came in have more right and recognition than the people and body before them? Saying that colonisation was simply unfair because it is what people did at the time says two things. 1) A migrant who comes here has more right than First Nations people 2) First Nations people and the land they live on is not that important or significant, therefore justifying the idea of terra nullius.

I'm not disputing that tribes didn't have arguments and battles. That's no justification for colonisation though, and going, "well they would have fought anyway, so we are entitled to come and take it and then just never acknowledge them and their people. Also, we're going to kill you if you try to resist". The part I've bolded is exactly what I'm saying. We need to recognise the pain and suffering. 26th Jan is a symbol of that pain and suffering. By ignoring that and continuing to have the day as a celebration is not recognising the pain and suffering, it is celebrating it. Saying, "your life is not worth as much as the people who came here and took it from you".

I got my citizenship on the 26th of Jan. I used to look forward to the day when we first migrated here. Then I learnt the history and spoke tot he elders and people in my community. As someone who comes from a country that was colonised and understands first hand the impacts of colonisation, I can't rightly celebrate that day.
 
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In the interests of free speech I think that people asking for message board threads to be shut down because they don't happen to like what's being 'discussed' are similar to those who say if you're burning 'our' flag you should be arrested and charged with a criminal offence.

Its all a bit whingy and whiny in my opinion....

And I'm not a free speech absolutist by any means but I think that it needs to be maintained within reason.

Eventually an Australia Day thread will die a natural death anyway and will usually be revived the following year....
 
My general argument was not that they would fight and kill anyway - it is that their society employed the same principles of fighting that the British did but on a tribal scale.

I honestly cannot say, but I am sure one tribe will have wiped out an opposing tribe at some stage in the history of this land. We are not crying out for the 'conquered' tribe to be given back what was stolen from them. It is history and it is irrelevant now. That was my Roman reference.

There is an element of hypocrisy in an argument that says colonisation by force is bad when a tribal society used it too on their own scale.

That is all my point was there - nothing about excusing, refuting or denying the abuse and attempted genocide.

I will never say "you lost, get over it" and no part of my discussion was meant to indicate that line of thought. It was about acknowledging the pain and suffering as you bolded and work out how we can move on from it. Fighting about it eternally is not a solution.

I know you disagree, but the land rights is another issue for me entirely. Related, most definitely, but not the same. Time, the death of all involved at the time, and births have changed the landscape beyond the simple question of original ownership. In this I am so obviously biased - I recognise that - but it does not make me totally wrong at the same time.

As a simplistic point - nothing would stop society saying tomorrow "we understand and acknowledge the pain and loss you have suffered" and for the indigenous people to collectively say "we thank you for the apology and genuine acknowledgement and understanding of our suffering - and we now welcome you all to the land as a whole".

The matter could be resolved in that moment.

Except there are so many agendas within this very complex situation. Nothing about it, other than the need for recognition, understanding and acknowledgement, is clear cut, good and bad, right and wrong.

My discussion about Bondi was not about actual gun control - but it used the reaction as an example just the same as a reaction could be mounted against a steak knife. Almost every crime committed with a firearm in this country in the current age is done by an unlicensed person with an illegal weapon. The overwhelming number of good, decent people who use and own legal, registered firearms are not the problem here.

You can legislate all you want but for the most part it will harm the fair and safe activities of normal people and do nothing to stop the bad people doing what they want. There are probably more serious injuries from footballs and cricket balls than legal registered firearms - but it would be ridiculous to legislate the use of such balls and it wouldn't happen because the majority of people recognise it as sport.

I did not want to take this into gun control because that is not relevant here - but since you raised it I mention it.

I grew up around safe, legal and considered use of firearms for target shooting, hunting and farming use. They are normal to me and are just a tool or piece of sporting equipment like any other. In fact, when it comes to a man with a knife and a man with a gun in close proximity the knife is actually by far the more damaging weapon.

My reference to Bondi was just that the Government response has been excessive and inappropriate - as it always is when 'something' happens. Legislative controls do nothing to solve problems like this - it just hurts good people.

Anyone who thinks the actual perpetrators of Bondi should have had licences and firearms is kidding themselves. Anyone who thinks no-one should have licences and firearms when hundreds of thousands of decent people have them without any danger of a problem is coming from a lifestyle or history that does not understand them in our Australian context.

Take the guns away and the bad people will use - case in point - explosives - or bows, or knives, or spears, or guns anyway.

Target the problem not the easy public scapegoats.

I disagree with "say nothing and you condone it". I am not a public person and I choose not to speak out in protest - but I can say with 100% certainty that I do not condone Bondi, that I am entirely against that sort of behaviour, and that it is a strawman argument of its own to say "if you do not wear an orange shirt on Wednesday you support child abuse". No-one has a right to tell me how I should represent my values.

I will not sit by while someone is being attacked or is publicly doing the wrong thing - although I am always incredibly fearful of what might follow when I step in.

All that aside - in all honesty, on the human rights issues, and the associated Australia Day date, I think we are pretty much aligned.

Just not on the whole 'who owns the house' aspect.
 
In the interests of free speech I think that people asking for message board threads to be shut down because they don't happen to like what's being 'discussed' are similar to those who say if you're burning 'our' flag you should be arrested and charged with a criminal offence.

Its all a bit whingy and whiny in my opinion....

And I'm not a free speech absolutist by any means but I think that it needs to be maintained within reason.

Eventually an Australia Day thread will die a natural death anyway and will usually be revived the following year....
If I may clarify. I didn't make the suggestion because I don't like what's being said. I just thought it might be easier to keep all Australian related talk in the Aus politics thread. Australia Day is a political topic. In saying that, I respect the mods and Pasaquali. I do know the mods get busy and so sometimes just put suggestions there. I respect their call at the end of the day.

My general argument was not that they would fight and kill anyway - it is that their society employed the same principles of fighting that the British did but on a tribal scale.

I honestly cannot say, but I am sure one tribe will have wiped out an opposing tribe at some stage in the history of this land. We are not crying out for the 'conquered' tribe to be given back what was stolen from them. It is history and it is irrelevant now. That was my Roman reference.

There is an element of hypocrisy in an argument that says colonisation by force is bad when a tribal society used it too on their own scale.

That is all my point was there - nothing about excusing, refuting or denying the abuse and attempted genocide.
Difference in tribal fights is that it is within that land, not someone from outside coming in, taking over, killing all those tribes, and then pretending those people never ever existed. Those tribes didn't just fight on sight. There were rules and laws that governed them, where fighting would be one of the consequences. If we excuse the idea that anyone can come in and take over because tribes fight, then we allow any country to invade any other country. Hitler, Napoleon, Alexander, Cleopatra, The Ottomans, The Romans, no one should have opposed them. We also should let Putin do what he wants. To clarify, I don't justify or condone any of those people.
I will never say "you lost, get over it" and no part of my discussion was meant to indicate that line of thought. It was about acknowledging the pain and suffering as you bolded and work out how we can move on from it. Fighting about it eternally is not a solution.
There are many on here who have. I didn't say you said it. You keep asking the question, how do we move on. First Nations people are saying, we can start by not celebrating the day of invasion. Simple as that.
I know you disagree, but the land rights is another issue for me entirely. Related, most definitely, but not the same. Time, the death of all involved at the time, and births have changed the landscape beyond the simple question of original ownership. In this I am so obviously biased - I recognise that - but it does not make me totally wrong at the same time.

As a simplistic point - nothing would stop society saying tomorrow "we understand and acknowledge the pain and loss you have suffered" and for the indigenous people to collectively say "we thank you for the apology and genuine acknowledgement and understanding of our suffering - and we now welcome you all to the land as a whole".

The matter could be resolved in that moment.

Except there are so many agendas within this very complex situation. Nothing about it, other than the need for recognition, understanding and acknowledgement, is clear cut, good and bad, right and wrong.
You're right. I think it has to be genuine. We take the first step, and there is so much opposition to it, so in many ways its tokenistic. Take Welcome to Country for example. A unique First Nations custom and tradition. I'm all for it at main events and significant moments. No need for it in the weekly Monday meeting. However, we have Politicians opposing it and using at political platforms to win votes. So how do we address all the other issues when just about every single thing that First Nations people are putting forward or asking for is questioned, derided and viewed as -in some cases- "dumb". Not to mention media who stoke this fire.
My discussion about Bondi was not about actual gun control - but it used the reaction as an example just the same as a reaction could be mounted against a steak knife. Almost every crime committed with a firearm in this country in the current age is done by an unlicensed person with an illegal weapon. The overwhelming number of good, decent people who use and own legal, registered firearms are not the problem here.

You can legislate all you want but for the most part it will harm the fair and safe activities of normal people and do nothing to stop the bad people doing what they want. There are probably more serious injuries from footballs and cricket balls than legal registered firearms - but it would be ridiculous to legislate the use of such balls and it wouldn't happen because the majority of people recognise it as sport.

I did not want to take this into gun control because that is not relevant here - but since you raised it I mention it.

I grew up around safe, legal and considered use of firearms for target shooting, hunting and farming use. They are normal to me and are just a tool or piece of sporting equipment like any other. In fact, when it comes to a man with a knife and a man with a gun in close proximity the knife is actually by far the more damaging weapon.

My reference to Bondi was just that the Government response has been excessive and inappropriate - as it always is when 'something' happens. Legislative controls do nothing to solve problems like this - it just hurts good people.

Anyone who thinks the actual perpetrators of Bondi should have had licences and firearms is kidding themselves. Anyone who thinks no-one should have licences and firearms when hundreds of thousands of decent people have them without any danger of a problem is coming from a lifestyle or history that does not understand them in our Australian context.

Take the guns away and the bad people will use - case in point - explosives - or bows, or knives, or spears, or guns anyway.
I'm not a fan of "bad people always gonna be bad". It kind of gives excuse to the need to take action. The Bondi shooters had 6 guns. They should never have had that amount, especially after being on ASIO lists. The laws allowed it, so surely the laws need to be better to not allow such a thing, particularly if people are on an ASIO list. We're lucky to not be the States where it is just so unregulated and out of control, but we still need to be vigilant and have strong enough laws. Bondi exploited some gaps that need tightening. I'm not against people having guns for genuine reasons, but just about tightening the loopholes.

There is also a bigger issue to people who do these crimes. None of them are mentally stable. We have a society that has for a long time pushed many to certain extremes and we don't necessarily address them in the right here. Kind of like health issues. We don't address the root cause, but rather band aid symptoms if that makes sense.
Target the problem not the easy public scapegoats.

I disagree with "say nothing and you condone it". I am not a public person and I choose not to speak out in protest - but I can say with 100% certainty that I do not condone Bondi, that I am entirely against that sort of behaviour, and that it is a strawman argument of its own to say "if you do not wear an orange shirt on Wednesday you support child abuse". No-one has a right to tell me how I should represent my values.

I will not sit by while someone is being attacked or is publicly doing the wrong thing - although I am always incredibly fearful of what might follow when I step in.

All that aside - in all honesty, on the human rights issues, and the associated Australia Day date, I think we are pretty much aligned.

Just not on the whole 'who owns the house' aspect.
Again, I've been called out on here because I didn't specifically say the words condone. When I did, I still got called out or was kind of told I wasn't being genuine. Not just on here. I've had in public and in other spaces. I've sat in staff rooms where this topic comes up and colleagues go, "well, the other muslims never condone it, so they like it".

I don't think one particular person owns the house. We can't change the past and we can't kick everyone out who is non First Nations. We are where we are. In saying that, we need to have greater representation of First Nations voice in the constitution and the decision making of this country, particularly on aspects relating to First Nations people. Right now, it feels like all of that occurs in tokenistic measure, and not genuine ones.
 
If I may clarify. I didn't make the suggestion because I don't like what's being said. I just thought it might be easier to keep all Australian related talk in the Aus politics thread. Australia Day is a political topic. In saying that, I respect the mods and Pasaquali. I do know the mods get busy and so sometimes just put suggestions there. I respect their call at the end of the day.

Fair enough but that is like saying all the various UEFA threads should be put in one general UEFA thread or all the various Matilda's threads in one Matilda thread.

Political discourse like football discourse is wide and varied and sometimes topics require their own specific thread.
 
Fair enough but that is like saying all the various UEFA threads should be put in one general UEFA thread or all the various Matilda's threads in one Matilda thread.

Political discourse like football discourse is wide and varied and sometimes topics require their own specific thread.
Well, no because each of those European leagues are different discussions and the same applies to the Matildas threads.

This became a thread where people are discussing Australian politics. Anyway, the thread stays.
 
Well, no because each of those European leagues are different discussions and the same applies to the Matildas threads.

This became a thread where people are discussing Australian politics. Anyway, the thread stays.

If that's the case the chronicle's of a stable genius thread should have been put in the World News and Politics.....

It's closing down discussions on particular topics that people have thought merit a thread of their own which I think both examples do, because you want to suffocate the discussion.

One person's attachment of importance can be different from other people’s.....
 
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If that's the case the chronicle's of a stable genius thread should have been put in the World News and Politics.....

It's closing down discussions on particular topics that people have thought merit a thread of their own which I think both examples do, because you want to suffocate the discussion.

One person's attachment of importance can be different from other people’s.....
Again, I'm not trying to suffocate or close discussion. It was simply a suggestion.

Why does everyone always have to misconstrue and misrepresent.
 
Here's my take on the general issue surrounding the Australia Day debate..

I quite often think that nation states are artificial constructs and incubators of jingoism and prejudice. We're all citizens of our own home, our street, city, country and the world. We're all living under the same sky in other words.

Of course you have to have a rules based system on who comes and goes but nobody really has the right to say I or we own this particular land...
 
Can we keep it short and sweet guys, I never read these essays. You can say a lot in one paragraph
 
Can we keep it short and sweet guys, I never read these essays. You can say a lot in one paragraph
I hear you - but some things are worth discussing in detail and require more than a paragraph to make distinctions.

I have no objections at all to someone skipping any and all of my lengthy posts.

The detail is there for anyone who wants to read them.

Or doesn't.

I do agree that I have used too much electronic ink over the last day or so but I also felt it warranted greater content for its importance.

Nuff said by me.
 
I hear you - but some things are worth discussing in detail and require more than a paragraph to make distinctions.

I have no objections at all to someone skipping any and all of my lengthy posts.

The detail is there for anyone who wants to read them.

Or doesn't.

I do agree that I have used too much electronic ink over the last day or so but I also felt it warranted greater content for its importance.

Nuff said by me.

I quite like the long form posts....

I think it gives a thread a bit of credence. You can’t beat comprehensive, in-depth, well thought out informative written pieces, rather than just quick, surface-level facts or opinions....
 
You can argue with him till you're blue in the face, I don't think he's here for the soccer
If you are referring to Zimbos05 - don't be deceived.

He has written at least three Fan View articles on here about football and is a longstanding football follower.

He is also obviously committed and passionate about other things that pass through this forum.

I do not try to change his mind so I don't see it as arguing anymore - just trying to understand his perspective and maybe change my own a little.

Remember - there are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
 
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